Emily: 0:00

Hey ness.

Vanessa: 0:01

Hey. Um, So I have a feeling we might be talking about yogurt a lot today. Again,

Emily: 0:07

Oh my God. It's going to make my day. I'm so excited about that.

Vanessa: 0:12

Emily's favorite topic? Yogurt.

Emily: 0:15

It's really my favorite thing to discuss. And also lately, because I found a yoga to actually like nutrition and taste-wise, I think I post this in our stories long time ago. But finding the elusive yogurt that actually checks all the boxes for me taste-wise and health wise has been really exciting.

Vanessa: 0:35

Yeah. That's like a diamond in the rough. What what kind of yogurt is it?

Emily: 0:40

The brand is Icelandic provisions so it's a non-dairy yogurt and it has 10 grams of protein. Which is a lot for a non-dairy yogurt and it also has just, yeah, and it also has just eight grams of sugar.

Vanessa: 0:59

Hm.

Emily: 1:00

So it's like enough to be really sweet and enjoyable, but I can still taste the overall flavor and it's not going to make my blood sugar skyrocket and involve me feeling ill after I eat breakfast.

Vanessa: 1:13

Does that eight grams? Or added.

Emily: 1:20

Yeah. Eight grams added. Well, no, it's eight grams total. It's eight grams total.

Vanessa: 1:24

Okay, nice. Yeah. So eight grams of sugar is not too bad, but let's get into the facts about whether sugar is addictive and how much we should be eating or how little

Emily: 1:36

Sounds good.

Vanessa: 1:43

All right. Welcome to wellness Smith. Today we are discussing sugar. Sugar is a super hot topic. We've all seen those articles. Sugar is as addictive as cocaine and all kinds of crazy stuff like that. So we want to give you the skinny on. Sure.

Emily: 2:05

I'm really, really excited to talk about this because it's something that comes up in the kind of anti diet culture world. So often sugar has been really demonized. And I think before we even get any further, we need to talk about really what sugar is

Vanessa: 2:22

And I think this is a common misconception because a lot of times people will look up like quote, unquote, healthier. Recipes like for baking or for whatever it is. And they'll use things like honey or maple syrup as a substitution for sugar. And while those are fine substitutions to use and maybe have a couple more nutrients than sugar, they are still sugar also. And that's really important to remember.

Emily: 2:49

Totally. I love when recipes are like refined sugar-free okay. But like that's still sugar.

Vanessa: 2:56

Yeah.

Emily: 2:57

so it's really interesting. So sugar is a sweet carbohydrate that takes many forms such as glucose or sucrose in a table. Sugar fructose is a type of sugar found in plants like in your fruits and starches are long chains of sugar. We refer to those as complex carbs. A lot of the times you might be familiar and simple carbohydrates would just be regular old sugar. So the carbs in these simple sugars. Such as white flour, white rice are really easily broken down and they cause blood sugar levels to rise quickly. So this could be a much needed thing. If you need quick, fast energy like a pre-workout or you know, how like runners carry little pouches of glucose based on how long they're running for plugged to our pre-workout post-workout nutrition episode.

Vanessa: 3:46

Check it out.

Emily: 3:48

We definitely talked about that. And so that's just how simple sugars are going to work in the body and complex carbs, which are more likely to be found in whole grains are broken down slower. So they let your blood sugar rise gradually. We definitely prefer that because a diet that's high in foods that causes rapid rise in blood sugar consistently. So ultimately when you're hearing sugar be demonized, you're definitely hearing the simple sugars, things like white sugar and white flowers.

Vanessa: 4:17

Yeah, So keeping your blood sugar stable is not only important for people with diabetes but also people without diabetes. So blood sugar spikes and lows can cause mood changes and just all around issues with energy. So everyone wants to keep their blood sugar as consistent as possible.

Emily: 4:40

Yeah, this is kind of like me trying to eat a donut in the morning. Like if I wake up and have a donut things do not go well for me, my digestion. I feel miserable. I feel super low energy, awful. Like Matt knows if he brings home donuts, he better be bringing home like a breakfast sandwich. In addition to that, or he'll be like, Emily, make sure you have your Greek yogurt beforehand, because I literally cannot eat that right away. Otherwise I feel miserable, but I love a donut. So like I eat them all the time. I just have to be smart about it because otherwise I have major blood sugar, spike and crash.

Vanessa: 5:16

Yeah. And that's when like a lot of people feel either, like Emily said kind of tired and lethargic or you might get a headache. So it's not the greatest move. So that's why we always say to. Pair carbohydrates with proteins and fats because that's, what's going to prohibit those kinds of spikes. And when we say carbs we kind of mean sugar.

Emily: 5:39

Yeah, definitely. And like we had just said some carbohydrates, sugar, technically dense foods, like whole grain cereals or brown rice or fruits and veggies. They have fiber in them. So the sugar is going to absorb slower. So you don't get that same kind of crash that you do because the absorption is just not as quick.

Vanessa: 6:00

Right. Exactly. Versus like a white rice or a white bread, which is not going to have as much fiber. And that's where you're going to see the spike.

Emily: 6:09

Definitely. And of course those more complex carbs are usually going to have more nutrients, but it's going to depend what you're using them for. Maybe if you're super, super hungry, you have any all day you're like white rice or you're like, Oh, I really like the taste of white rice versus brown, and I had whole grain cereal for breakfast. So I already got my whole grains in. I'm not that concerned. So it's really not productive as usual to demonize either group.

Vanessa: 6:36

Right. Everything has its place. Yeah. Probably be trying to eat more complex carbs, but simple carbs, definitely have a time and place in your life. Like Emily mentioned before, even before a workout or something like that or during a workout can be super, super helpful.

Emily: 6:54

Yeah, you want that energy to come across really quick. And I think it's like, we're constantly trying to get people to stop simplifying things. But in reality, I kind of want people to simplify this where you're like, okay, this is just energy. Food is energy. And in this scenario, we can fully view it as.

Vanessa: 7:12

Yes. So now that we know what sugar is, I think we should get right into it. So. Is sugar as harmful as they say. So, like I mentioned before, sugar, hugely demonized there's been, I think studies or at least headlines that have said sugar is just as addictive as cocaine. And everyone's addicted to sugar. So let's dive into the science on that a little.

Emily: 7:40

And I'm so happy that we have science available about this topic, because it was really just a study done a few years ago. And this was actually a study that Evelyn Tribley herself gave me and the rest of our intuitive eating counselor training program people about.

Vanessa: 7:57

like gave you personally only,

Emily: 8:00

Yeah. Yeah. She just

Vanessa: 8:02

like when you guys were texting.

Emily: 8:04

Yeah, we were having a personal conversation

Vanessa: 8:07

Well, and we should probably, we should probably tell everyone who Evelyn Tripoli is. If if they don't.

Emily: 8:13

Yeah, totally. Evelyn Tripoli is the creator Maven all around bad ass of intuitive eating. She has a book that she released alongside a therapist and they release new issues. I think every couple of years they just released a new one and also a moment for everyone to send her some good energy because she's currently undergoing treatment for breast cancer right now. So I always like to start with where these rumors come from, because it's usually kind of, is pretty enlightening to the topic in general. So claims about the addictiveness of sugar are based largely on findings from just very few animal studies, usually rat studies where there's kind of no human evidence involved for these symptoms of a substance dependence on sugar. The study in 2017 was done to examine this large sample of human participants to decide if sugar in particular might cause a dish addiction like problems. Studies that we're referencing that basically all of these headlines are based off of saying that sugar is as addictive as cocaine and what other drug they decided to compare it to. Most of these experiences were all done about sugar bingeing. So rats were given access to sucrose for 12 hours, followed by 12 hours without soup. Okay. So this is like a typical restrict binge cycle. the authors of these studies described the rats kind of behaved in a way that they binged on the sugar when they had it and that this sugar. Lit up the dopamine pathways in the brain. And they were like, well, dopamine pathways are lit up when you do cocaine, but dopamine pathways are lit up when you do lots of things. When you eat something you really like when you have sex, if you win a prize, if you feel love, you're listening to music. Anytime there's kind of a reward or a feel good pleasurable action. You know, it doesn't mean that you're addicted to winning things. If you genuinely enjoy getting first place in a contest and you get a dopamine boost from that, it just signifies a pleasurable experience. So that's kind of like the first sort of misnomer that we can correct when it comes to sugar addiction.

Vanessa: 10:26

it may be, you're getting a dopamine buzz right now as you're listening to wellness.

Emily: 10:33

You totally could be. I mean, it says music, I think podcasts totally qualify

Vanessa: 10:40

I'm not sure if our voices are, very musical though.

Emily: 10:44

no, but I feel like we're at least kind of funny and sometimes laughing kind of gives it to you. So.

Vanessa: 10:50

So there you go. You're welcome.

Emily: 10:52

Okay. So basically they did this study with 1500 people and 12% of those people exhibited one sign of addiction and that sign was persistent desire or repeated unsuccessful attempt to quit the substance, right. In this case. And for this particular study, they realized that was mostly for high fat and high sugar foods leading us to believe that humans are still drawn to these heavy foods that we know will be calorically dense and give us energy from an evolution standpoint. Only 5% reported the addictive feelings from sugar alone. And the question that we kind of ask here is how much of that is just a restriction, binge dieting behavior, persistent desire, or repeated unsuccessful attempt to quit. I mean, I could apply that to like a lot of things in my life that I do not feel addicted to super strongly, like I'm rewatching seventh heaven right now on Hulu. I want to stop watching it. I want to do a different show, but I just can't stop.

Vanessa: 11:45

Yeah, I think everyone can feel pretty similarly about a show that. they have binged.

Emily: 11:52

Right. And it's like, this feeling comes up often. So this really isn't just like, this is the only kind of, if this is the only addiction hallmark that we have for sugar, then it's a pretty weak argument. So current findings can indicate that sugary foods contribute minimally to food dependence. Instead they're really consistent with the current scientific notion that food, energy density and the unique, very individualized experience of eating plays a really important role in. Determining how we relate to food. A more suitable conclusion would be that sugar has much more in common with the normal experiences of pleasure that causes the release of dopamine. And also it's really important to note that under adverse circumstances like emotional eating or, you know, like we're, I feel like we're always using the example of a tub of ice cream on the couch after a bad day. But here it comes again. And the rewarding value of sugary food can become increasingly emotionally comforting and or stress releasing. So if we correlate that in our minds, the emotional rewarding value will be reflected by altered brain rewards. So basically saying that, like, if we have sugar on this high pedestal, of course, we're going to feel like a reward or winning a prize.

Vanessa: 13:06

I think, I think with a lot of us that starts from a really young age with, you know, sugary foods being. As a reward, Hey, if you do this, you'll get ice cream. Hey, if you do this, you get a cookie. If you eat all your dinner, you'll get a donut, whatever it might be. I think that's programmed into us really, really young kind of as a society as it's this like mystical thing that we can only have once in a while. And if you've ever been a teenager with a boyfriend that your parents didn't like, you know, that. Someone telling you that something is bad, it makes you want it even more.

Emily: 13:44

Totally. And I mean, that's why, when these do these studies with these frickin rats, it's like, they don't have the kind of complex thought that human beings have around food. So when we see these studies, it's like, okay, you didn't grow up though. Having a restriction of sugar every time, unless you're at a birthday party. Unless rats are doing that. I don't think these particular ones were.

Vanessa: 14:09

Well, and like you're saying too, I mean, I think in any situation, especially with an animal or with a human, if you are not giving them something for a certain amount of time, and then they know, I think, I mean, rats are smart enough to figure out that they're only going to have something for so long. So if you know, you only have a certain amount of time where you can have that thing, and you're not sure if it'll come back, you're going to binge it during that time.

Emily: 14:36

Right. And it has nothing to do with addiction. It, it just doesn't and the conclusion is really the brain does not appear to respond to food and or sugar in the same way as it does to drugs and addictive, like overeating. Is really distinct from a drug addiction disorder. So I know that so many people are like, but it feels like I'm so addicted to it. And I really. Ask those folks to think about what history you have with food. You know, like when I start to work with someone, I always ask what foods have been off limits in the past, because a lot of the times those are the foods that are still triggering to this day and that you might tend to overeat. And of course we don't want that stuff to be happening either. We want you to be able to eat until you're comfortably full and you know, not use food as your only coping tool., but that by no means says that that we absolutely cannot kick.

Vanessa: 15:30

Okay. And I think that's really, really important. So I guess we're busting that myth like right out the doors, I guess we're a bit in, so we're not right out the doors, but sugar is not addictive. Now, do we think that you should be eating sugar all day? Every day? Of course not. We're dietitians, right? We are not promoting everyone eating a ton of sugar and we know You know, as far as studies that have been done a lot of people maybe are consuming too much sugar. Is that because it's addictive? No. Is that because you know, there's sugar added to a lot of our foods probably.

Emily: 16:11

You know why, You know what it is.

Vanessa: 16:14

it tastes better.

Emily: 16:16

No, it's, it's all coming from the damn yogurt.

Vanessa: 16:20

Oh, there you go. Here comes the

Emily: 16:22

It's all coming from the yogurt. It's all from the yogurt.

Vanessa: 16:27

So we don't want people consuming a ton of sugar. Not because it's addictive, but because of course, if you are consuming a ton of sugar, that is. Centrally just empty calories and how we want you to think of it is if you're eating a diet that's really high in sugar, you're taking up all of your calories for the day with something that doesn't have nutrition in it. We want you to be getting vitamins and minerals all day versus getting. Nothing.

Emily: 17:04

Right.

Vanessa: 17:04

as we said, you know, the sugar is going to spike your glucose and it'll give you energy for a minute and then you'll burn out pretty quickly. So we don't really want to do that to our blood sugar all day.

Emily: 17:17

Alongside there being of course, a huge genetic component to diabetes. If we're consistently spiking that blood sugar every single day and making your insulin work harder and harder, then sometimes we do see an increased risk of diabetes and there's other things that can spike your blood sugar too. Stress is a huge one. So it's not just sugar that's affecting that, but it's, it's worth mentioning for sure.

Vanessa: 17:42

Right. 100%. So we're not saying that you shouldn't eat any sugar at all, but it is important to pay attention to things like yogurt that might have a little bit more sugar than you are intending on taking in. Of course it's Okay. to have a little bit of added sugar, right? Like we love cake, we love ice cream. It's good to enjoy those things. And you shouldn't. You know, restrict those things or tell yourself that you can't have them, you should be able to enjoy those a moderation. So don't think you have to be at zero grams of sugar every day. I mean, that wouldn't even be possible. I guess maybe zero grams of added sugar every day. That's not how you have to live your life. I mean, sugary treats are delicious. We all know it. Well, if you've listened to wellness, Smiths, you know, that. Don't love a lot of shit. So I guess it's weird that I'm, I'm mentioning that, but I mean, I do like an occasional ice cream or chocolate, so

Emily: 18:44

I feel like I definitely tends more towards the sugary sweets than you do for sure.

Vanessa: 18:50

Yeah. Yeah. I'm a bitter, bitter and salty but. Just better in salty. Anyhow. So yeah, there, I mean, sugar is not all bad. It can bring us a lot of joy in those occasions where we're having birthday cake or enjoying a special occasion or a treat with someone. So don't, don't demonize. Again, be cognizant of it and your diet because you don't want to be consuming a ton, but don't demonize it either. So that kind of brings me to sugar alternatives. So I feel like since sugar has been so demonized in our culture, there's been kind of a movement towards using other things. That are sweet, that don't have calories. So people are kind of thinking away thinking like, Okay. this takes away the issue of adding excess calorie, empty calories to my day. But I can still sweeten things. So before we get into this more, Emily, what are your feelings on sugar alternatives?

Emily: 19:56

Yeah, so I feel like it's, it's, there's been a full circle kind of transformation because now they're in like a lot of, I used to never engage with these at all. And now they're in a lot of those really popular, like prebiotic drinks. That I tend to be drinking a lot, like Olly pop or little sparkling waters. Sometimes they have like, just a little bit of, you know, erythritol or Stevia. And I seem to do okay with them. Digestion wise. It doesn't bother me at all. But it's definitely not something that I want to experiment with, like baking wise or something like that. I feel like my satisfaction wouldn't really be hit if I had a Stevia cookie versus one with real sugar, and I might end up like eating five cookies to try to Engage with my cookie craving, when really I would have just eaten like one cookie with actual sugar in it. I feel like it would cause me to probably kind of go overboard the other way. And I'd see that with people a lot.

Vanessa: 20:51

Yeah. And that's usually I get asked about sugar alternatives a lot, and a lot of times my response is like, why, why.

Emily: 21:01

Right.

Vanessa: 21:03

If you want something that is sweet. Just have that. There's no reason to you know, be. Restricting yourself so much that you can't have any sugar at all. Unless it's a sugar alternative. And if you're like needing that much sugar in your life, I feel like we need to check out your diet because you're probably not getting most of the things we want you to.

Emily: 21:30

Yeah, I think it's like, you need to go back to your why. I think a lot of people and like, this is honestly offensive, but I don't really care. Like, you know, like the sugar-free at the Starbucks, like you really feel like, you know, you're doing yourself a big, huge favor with like the sugar-free sweetener at Starbucks versus the sugar full one.

Vanessa: 21:52

Hm.

Emily: 21:53

You know, it's like, you really have to have back to your, why are you doing it? Because you're kind of afraid of sugar. Are you doing it because you have to have this, like, you know, huge Starbucks drink every day and you don't want to like blow a bunch of calories on it at once. You know, I think you really have to go and do maybe just not like the taste you know, like Vanessa and I both get like half pumps on something at Starbucks.

Vanessa: 22:14

Oh, yeah. You know, I'm getting a half bump.

Emily: 22:18

I think I actually do that well. Right. Cause you're just such a bitter bitter lady.

Vanessa: 22:24

And salty, bitter and salty

Emily: 22:28

so I think you're actually the person that kind of like taught me. You could do that. Like, and now I go up there and I ask, Hey, like how many pumps are in this, you know, gingerbread latte. And they'll tell me like, you know, oh, there's 18 pumps and I'll be like, oh, okay. Could I maybe have. Eat instead, not like that. Those aren't real numbers. There's like three or four pumps. But usually asked for like half of it, because I know I want something sweet and I want that flavor, but I'd rather have like a slice of pie later than have it in my coffee. And for some people it's opposite, they'd rather have these like nice coffee drinks with all of the sugar and sweetener and that's totally fine. You know, it just depends, like we said before, where you're kind of going to spend your.

Vanessa: 23:09

Right. I think that's really important, just assessing where you want to spend your. sugar. And again, if you're assessing that and you are eating so much sugar that it's, you know, affecting vastly, how many calories you're intaking, you might just want to reconsider how much sugar your intake.

Emily: 23:34

Yeah. And sometimes to consider, do you have a pattern of restricting sugar and then bingeing it. You know, I think there's a lot of people who try to avoid it, try to avoid it and then feel so out of control with it, which I've literally said so much on that topic on this podcast in general, but it goes right back to that sugar addiction study.

Vanessa: 23:52

right. Yeah. Which I want to talk a little bit. More in depth on Stevia in particular, because I get a lot of questions about Stevia. I think it's something it's an alternative that has I don't know, gained more popularity probably since like, I don't know, two thousands you think

Emily: 24:15

Yeah, definitely. My parents had Stevia when I was in like high school, probably like a little dropper in the fridge. They probably still have that very same bottle right now. I can almost guarantee you. My mom never throws anything out.

Vanessa: 24:28

yeah. Oh my gosh. That must be a mom thing too, because my mom doesn't throw anything out. I swear to God one time, my brother and I, my parents were off on a trip. Sorry. This is a tangent, my brother and I cleaned out. our parents' fridge cause we were trying to be nice and we literally found eight jars of Allmand butter.

Emily: 24:48

I remember you telling me about this because I was sharing with you how my mom hoards baby cucumbers. And I literally told her, she called me the other day and she was like, Emily, be so proud because I bought baby cucumbers and then I cut them up and ate them. And I was like, wow. Wow. This is huge for you because it's so bad. know what it is. Scarcity mindset, I guess. Okay. Anyways, back to the Stevia, everyone can think

Vanessa: 25:14

to Stevia. So. So. this is one I get asked about a lot. And my honest answer is I'm not a big fan. And part of that is because I'm not really a big fan of any sugar alternatives. And when I say sugar alternative, I know I mentioned like honey and maple syrup. As sugar alternatives at the beginning of this. And although they are, I'm kind of putting them in a different category than like Stevia and things like that. I don't know. It seems different to me. Does it to you?

Emily: 25:46

Yeah, non-nutritive sweeteners.

Vanessa: 25:48

yeah. Yeah, So, Stevia, I think people kind of get mystified by it. You know, a lot of the packaging has like a plant on it. It's like, look super natural. Which, okay. Regular sugar does come from a plant too. So

Emily: 26:07

Yeah, let's

Vanessa: 26:08

that clear there. And Stevia is actually super, highly processed and a lot of times it has sweeteners added into it too. So it'll have a Ruther top. Paul and dextrose and, or I should say combined with it. So it's not pure Stevia. So, you know, a lot of your brands like Stevia in the raw or Truvia, it's actually just a blend. So it's, it has those sugar alcohols in it too. Which can be kind of tough on your GI tract. And to me. Stevia and these other sugar alternatives have a different taste to them too. And any time we're in territory like this, I just don't like the idea of like tricking your body. I don't know. It just, it doesn't sit well with me. Like tricking your body into thinking that this is something better. And while I think Stevia has a ton of great marketing that has made people think that it's the best thing in the world. Again, I just want you to remember, I mean, this is not, it might say like pure, the name might say pure something in it, but it's not pure. Highly processed. It's probably going to have a sugar alcohol in it. Which are whatever, I mean, might give you diarrhea.

Emily: 27:28

Give it to you.

Vanessa: 27:29

right. And I also found a study from 2019 that found that Stevia actually. Decreased the abundance of health promoting gut microbiota. So they want to do further studies on, you know, metabolic outcomes from consuming Stevia and things like that. But I, I just, I implore you to think, about again, why are you using Stevia versus even if you want to sweeten something, honey, maple syrup, sugar, regular sugar like what are your goals with that?

Emily: 28:08

So one population that sometimes these non-nutritive sweeteners like Stevia might be useful are for people with diabetes who may want to enjoy a sweet treat without factoring it into. You know, whatever their insulin regimen is for the day. So maybe you aren't taking your insulin for a little while and you can't afford a big blood sugar spike, but you want something sweet. So you're like, man, let me try out the Stevia stuff.

Vanessa: 28:40

Right. Yeah. So a time and place for it, I guess. But. Definitely not something that I in my professional opinion would recommend.

Emily: 28:54

Yeah. And I think really people need to think about satisfaction is Stevie. I'm going to give you the same satisfaction that sugar would. And if you still feel like you want to use it, then maybe you really like the taste. Maybe you have diabetes. Maybe you're still just a little bit afraid of sugar from the absolutely understandable years of demonizing that our society has done on it.

Vanessa: 29:21

Right. And, you know, it's important just to remember too, you know, with the Stevia products. Again, it might say pier, but with the sugar alcohols you might have some digestive problems like bloating or diarrhea. So if you are consuming a lot of Stevia or other sugar alcohols, and you're bloated all the time, it might be time to take a look at, you know, what's going on with.

Emily: 29:46

Totally. If you're having like severe GI distress distress after your sugar-free latte in the morning, it could be the coffee. It very likely it could be the Stevia in the sugar-free. So overall sugar. Not addictive foods, not addictive in general, but specifically sugar. Pairing your sugar with protein and fat is going to stop that blood sugar spike. That might not feel so good. Maybe you need some sugar when you're exercising, you have a long run. That might be a great time for a simple carb and make sure you're near a bathroom. If you drink Stevia products, I think that covers it.

Vanessa: 30:31

All right. See you next time. Keep your blood sugar steady.