Acupuncture: The Deal on Tiny Needles

Emily: 0:09

Welcome to this one week's episode of wellness Smiths. And today we have a special guest, someone who we've actually had before she was here to talk about cupping last time. Welcome back, Danielle.

Danielle: 0:22

Hi, thanks for having me.

Emily: 0:23

So Danielle is a doctor of Chinese medicine. She is a holistic health practitioner and a small business owner. She is originally from Hawaii, but got her masters of acupuncture and Chinese medicine in Portland, Oregon, where she now resides. She received her doctorate. From the Pacific college of health and science. Okay. So Danielle, today, you're here to talk to us about acupuncture and I'm really excited because I just got acupuncture from you like last week.

Danielle: 0:54

Yeah.

Emily: 0:55

It was awesome. And I really love was going to update you again because you had texted me about it. But my back is feeling really, really good. Like I've been doing a lot of the kind of exercises that we talked about and I did a twist today and I almost felt normal.

Danielle: 1:10

Yay. That's great. Love to hear.

Vanessa: 1:13

And Emily, that was your first time getting acupuncture.

Emily: 1:16

Yes, like I hadn't done one time previously, but it was like really lame and weak and the person like didn't really care about me at all. So yeah, basically, yes. After going to see Danielle, that was definitely my first time getting like real good acupuncture.

Danielle: 1:31

That's terrible. I hate hearing those kinds of stories. Was it like, because you were just trying it out or. Where they just do a station on you or something

Emily: 1:42

Yeah. Like I stayed at face up the whole time and it just felt like really, really general. And like, they, we didn't really talk about any issue in particular. Just kind of felt like this sort of assembly line, like, okay. When people come here and sit in the chair, like you get this done and then you leave.

Danielle: 1:59

that's too

Emily: 2:00

So it was not very individualized at all.

Danielle: 2:03

Yeah. Was it like group acupuncture?

Emily: 2:06

It wasn't, it was just totally individual. So I don't know really quite what happened. It was in Texas. And then they went out of business shortly after. So probably what,

Danielle: 2:15

Right.

Emily: 2:16

there you go. Yup. And I said, have you ever had acupuncture before?

Vanessa: 2:20

I have actually not since like high school or maybe early college and both times it was like sports injuries. Like one time, I think it was for an ankle issue and I actually had a really good experience that time. It was in the UK and Holton like by Michigan tech. Um, and yeah, it was actually really great.

Danielle: 2:43

I think they actually have quite a bit of research coming out of one of the hospitals in Michigan. I think there's actually quite a bit of good acupuncture being done up there. I don't remember exactly the details, but I do remember in my graduate program, it was on my doctorate program. It was online. And so there were classes, there were people. Like big classes with people from all over the country, which was really cool. And I remember a girl from Michigan talking about how she specifically works in one of the hospitals doing research, acupuncture research, and one of the hospitals up there, which I thought was really great.

Vanessa: 3:22

Yeah, that's super interesting. So I guess before we get too far into it for people who aren't super familiar with acupuncture, can you define acupuncture for us and kind of tell us how it.

Danielle: 3:34

Yeah. So acupuncture is the placement of filiform or solid needles into acupuncture. Acupuncture points are scattered around the body. You insert the needle into the acupuncture point and it creates a stimulus. And that is basically what acupuncture is. I try to make that distinction just because people think of needles and they think of hypodermic needles. Many times people are. Scared of needles because their first experience with a needle as a hypodermic needle, it's injecting something into them. You know, if you get a lot of vaccine, sometimes you don't feel really great afterwards. So it kinda makes you feel shitty or also it's drawing blood out of you. Necessarily feel that great either. So acupuncture needles are just solid needles. They're not laced with anything. They are not injecting anything into you. They're not taking anything out of you. They're simply just needles that are going into different acupuncture points, applying stimulus. And so basically how it works is acupuncture works quite a bit with the nervous system. So it actually. Regulates certain key areas of the brain and causes the brain to release neurotransmitters the biggest quantity of neurotransmitter that it. stimulates the brain to release is actually dopamine. So that's why it kind of has that effect on decreasing overall sensation of pain uplifting mood, that sort of thing. I'm like forgetting my spiel now. Sorry.

Vanessa: 4:57

No. You're okay. So I wanted to ask you too. So when you say hypodermic. So basically you're saying like an acupuncture needle is not going as deep.

Danielle: 5:08

Well, it can go deep. I mean, there are some needles that are up to like two inches long. I mean, there are even longer than that actually. So it goes deep, but definitely it gets into the muscle layer. And it can also go into joints and that sort of thing, but it's just hypodermic needles or like what we think of when we think of needles first, like needles that we get shots with, right? Like needles that. When you're a kid, you see the doctor coming in with the needle and you're like scared of it. Cause it's scary. Right?

Vanessa: 5:38

Right.

Danielle: 5:39

But yeah, so acupuncture regulates certain key areas of the brain and causes the brain to release dopamine and other neurotransmitters. It actually works with your nervous system. So it takes you out of that fight and flight nervous system response and puts you into the rest and restore nervous system response. So the para works with the parasympathetic nervous system. So that's kind of why it can have an overall sedating effects on people. And there are certain different. Target tissues that we're looking that we're trying to get with acupuncture. So one is, you know, muscle. Put needles into different muscle motor points and cause the muscle to circulate. So it contracts and releases, and that helps it to release lactic acid, which causes the muscle to become tight. If it has a lot of lactic acid in it also helps it to kind of break up some of the scar tissue that forms around the muscle fibers. You can also put the needles in very lightly. So just into the kind of fascia layer and it helps to unwind the fascia. Put it into joint spaces. It cause it, you know, it helps to increase circulation and decrease inflammation and joints, painful joints. It also works with the nerves that are actually coming out of the spine or the central nervous system. So there's a lot of acupuncture points that are very close to the spine and it kind of helps those. It helps to bring circulation to that area, decrease inflammation. And that's how it helps to kind of, reduce pain of overactive nerves.

Vanessa: 7:05

So it's not necessarily only for injuries. You could get acupuncture for like sore muscles.

Danielle: 7:13

Yeah. I mean, acupuncture is great for releasing pain intention. It's great for sports injury. It's great for a lot of people come in. For overall, like anxiety people come in, if they're having trouble sleeping. I do a lot of labor induction actually. So people who are trying to encourage their body to go into labor in a natural way. So I mean, there's a lot of different things. You can do with acupuncture. People who have allergies really like acupuncture people who are chronically congested from allergies, acupuncture is really great for that. Acupuncture is used a lot in headaches and migraines. So there's all kinds of things that you can treat with.

Vanessa: 7:51

I feel like I always hear about acupuncture for like morning sickness in pregnancy. Do you ever do any of that? Do you find that that has helped.

Danielle: 8:01

Yeah, morning sickness is really hard. These poor people who are experiencing it. We definitely treat it and some people react really well to it. And some people are just really sick and it helps a little bit for a short period of time. Like they always feel better when they're getting the acupuncture for the most part. But sometimes you just need to come in pretty consistently to help with it. But yeah, I mean, people definitely come in for morning sickness.

Vanessa: 8:30

And I know before you mentioned like acupuncture points in the body. So do you have acupuncture points everywhere or are they more congested in certain places?

Danielle: 8:40

I mean, there are acupuncture points all over the body. So I don't remember the statistic and I should have looked this up maybe before I came on, but I mean, there's hundreds of acupuncture points on the body. And a lot of them are found over. Yeah. Like muscle motor points or dermatomes. They're found, around the joints, like the eyes of the knee, that's an acupuncture point. Both of them they're called Doobie. There's acupuncture points on the top of the head there's acupuncture points, like all over the ear. The ear is a microsystem. So there are.

Vanessa: 9:16

Very cool. And when you say eyes. What do you mean? Do you mean like your kneecap?

Danielle: 9:20

So, you know, like uh, where your, your knee cap is sitting. And then if you kind of run down your kneecap, if your leg is extended there's or there's like right at the bottom of the knee cap, there's a tendon That kind of connects at the bottom of the kneecap? And then right, if you kind of run a lot, like along the sides of the tendon, there is a little depression. It kind of looks like two little eyes. I don't know if you're like doing this along

Vanessa: 9:50

I am.

Danielle: 9:53

And it's called Doobie, which is in Chinese. It means like the the cow's nose. They say, it looks like a little cows nose. Like if your knee is just slightly bent. Yeah. If you push your little fingers and those depressions, it kind of looked like a cow's nose.

Vanessa: 10:10

Okay. So, and I know that Emily wanted to ask you about acupressure later on, but, so what would be the difference between, you know, if I find that, you know, a point on my body and press on it versus having an acupuncture needle go.

Danielle: 10:28

It's just a lighter stimulation, really. So that's why actually that's something that I tell people who come in with morning sickness quite a bit. Is to press on there's this one anti-nausea point on the wrist. And I'm like, when you're feeling really sick, just try to press on this and see if that helps. So acupressure is just a a lighter simulation and for people who are really, really, really nervous with needles, I usually recommend that they do some acupressure first. But I mean, what you wouldn't be doing is you wouldn't be able to get into some of the smaller joint spaces that we go into. You wouldn't be able to get that like really strong muscle for circulation that comes from actually needing needling a muscle motor point. But yeah, acupressure can be really helpful for people, for sure.

Emily: 11:16

I know I've asked you this before Danielle, but what are your thoughts about those acupressure mats? So like the little, if people aren't familiar listening, they're little cloth mats with pokey, plastic kind of things on them, and you can lie on them. You can stand on them. I've never been able to tolerate that, but my husband loves them and like loves to like take a nap on them. But I'm curious your thoughts.

Danielle: 11:41

Yeah. I mean, I don't really have too many thoughts on it. I think that some people really like them. And if it's helpful for you, then that's great. And if you don't like it, then that's fine too. I mean, little, they're not going over any specific acupuncture points. Now, of course they are touching some acupuncture points because acupuncture points are found all over the back and all over the body. So if you're laying down on it, of course it will be simulating some points, but not with any kind of, not any, any real thought or method to it. You know, it's just kind of. Applying a bunch of different points altogether, unanimously. But yeah, some people really swear by it. I've tried it. I, I thought it was really comfortable. My sister had one and I was in Hawaii and I had. My back was spasm. And she was like, lay on my acupuncture mat. And I was like, this, this doesn't look like it's going to do anything. And I did find, I mean, did it relieve my back pain? No, but it was comfortable and I was pretty uncomfortable at the time. So, you know, good.

Emily: 12:45

Yeah. It kind of seems like it's just not very individualized. Like you couldn't be like, oh, maybe I should have like this injury and let me lay on this acupuncture pressure mat. Like not the case.

Danielle: 12:56

Yeah. no, I think it just is kind of, for some people find it to be sedating and, you know, great.

Vanessa: 13:03

Yeah, I'm really glad that you didn't. They were terrible because I actually have one too. And I really enjoy, I don't use it all the time, but kind of like the, your same situation, Danielle, if I am really sore or something, I just find like a little bit of a release from it. It's not necessarily solving all of my issues or anything like that, but it it's just kind of like a nice little release.

Danielle: 13:27

Yeah. Yeah. Whatever makes you feel better. I mean, whatever, whatever tools you can find at home to help relieve stress or. Bring you comfort. I'm all about that. As long as it's not hurting you or hurting somebody else.

Vanessa: 13:42

Right. Yeah. So what are some super common misconceptions you hear about acupuncture? I'm sure you hear a ton.

Danielle: 13:50

Yeah. one that I get the most annoyed by is when people say that acupuncture is not science-based at all, or if it's just some sort of energy medicine there's definitely a component of energy medicine to acupuncture. There's a component of energy medicine to all medicine. I think people don't really understand that, like even. There's an energetic exchange, even with like your primary care physician. So all medicine all talk, like if you're in a room with somebody telling them about your problems and they're providing you some sort of hope, that's an energetic exchange, that's energy medicine, you know, that's relieving to a lot of people just to be able to get their story out there. So

Vanessa: 14:30

Right. Hello, placebo effect.

Danielle: 14:33

there's a component of energy medicine to all medicine, but acupuncture is actually really well studied. It was, you know, Obviously really well studied in China where it kind of comes out of, but it's also really well studied in the United States here. Like I was telling you one of the people I was working with was doing research at the new hospital in Michigan. There's more and more studies coming out about acupuncture all the time, because it is so helpful for people. And actually insurance is paying for acupuncture more and more now. And I don't know if your listeners know anything about insurance, but insurance doesn't pay. Unless there's medical necessity involved. And how do you prove medical necessity? You have to do a bunch of you have to do a bunch of research basically to prove it. And then at the, when it gets to the point where they're like, Okay. there's no way we can refute this anymore, then they'll start paying for it. So, so there's a bunch of research being done about acupuncture. And I really think that. Integrative medicine. So more integrative of holistic and Western principles is kind of the wave of the future. So, anyway, Yeah. so it's, it is really well studied and I was actually just listening to. A talk from that doctor. I was telling you about before this Dr. Paul Anderson and he was talking about epigenetics. And I don't know if you've guys have heard any information about epigenomics, but they're doing more research on this, but basically epigenetics is the study of everything that has happened to you in your lifetime and how it affects you and how it affects your health today. And they'll even go as far as to say that they think that. the genes that you're passed down from your mother and from your grandmother can be affecting you today. Be so the idea is that when you're, when you're born, when you're an embryo, you're already starting to develop like your ovaries and your ovaries have all the cells that they'll ever have for the potential, for your potential eggs and potential offspring. So. When your mother was developing in your grandmother, anything that was happening to her that was affecting the fetus was also affecting your mother's little ovary cells and therefore things that were happening to your grandmother while your mother was in utero will affect your health today, which is super fascinating. Right. And that's why. That's why some people may have a family dominance of some sort of genetic trait, but it never turns on for them, but like maybe it had turned on for their mother or their sister, or suddenly some sort of genetic disease will pop up and they didn't really, they don't really know where it came from. And it's because something happened to you that. You know, had some sort of impact on your body and created that, made that gene express or whatever. And he was kind of talking about it and I'm totally fascinated by epigenetics. And he was talking about it in relation to like post-viral syndrome, which is what a lot of people are experiencing with this COVID long haul syndrome these days. And, you know, People who are had COVID and are better from COVID are still experiencing some different types of like odd health problems. But not, they're not all the same. So some people might get like fevers in the middle of the day. Some people might just have excruciating joint pain. Some people might have this chronic fatigue that isn't going away and it's all because they had this same bite. But it's, but the post viral like syndrome for them as expressing differently. And so he was saying, you know, these people had the same thing, but it just depends on their Abbey genetics and how it's going to express for them. And I was thinking, God, that is a perfect example of how Chinese medicine works. So in Chinese medicine we say, That it depends on what your pattern is. And that's how we, we tried to decipher what your pattern is, and then that's how we treat you. So two people could walk into your office. They could both have headaches, but their pattern could be completely different. So you would give them a different treatment and a different herbs to treat their headache. And if you treat it, try to treat them the same. You wouldn't, maybe one would feel better, but one wouldn't And anyway, I just think that when I hear about how Western medicine perfectly describes principles, that like ancient Chinese people came up with back in the day, it just blows my mind a lot.

Vanessa: 18:48

Yeah, it is super interesting. Especially when you think about an epigenetics, like you were saying you know, what's happening to your mother as a fetus could affect you. And that includes like your grandmother going through trauma. It's not even about You know, everything that she's necessarily eating or ingesting it also includes just circumstances that are happening. So, it, it definitely shows goes to show you how holistic medicine is very much in need for all of them.

Danielle: 19:19

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're, they're kind of, they're doing a lot of study in psychology and the realm of psychology with epigenetics because. There's this idea that families pass down trauma and, and you know, well, how can that be? If this happened to your grandmother, why are you still feeling like the PTSD from it? If you're, you know, today, I think they're doing a lot of research around. Holocaust survivors and the offspring of Holocaust survivors, because obviously that was like a very traumatic event. Somebody who survived the Holocaust and children are still like some of the children or the grandchildren of these Holocaust survivors kind of display weird, like PTSD, like symptoms, even though that didn't happen to them. And so I, I, I don't know enough to talk really a lot about it, but I do think that that's a really fascinating area of psychology that they're kind of starting to come to And can eventually help a lot of people just by, you know, understanding it a little bit better.

Emily: 20:17

Yeah. And basically it just kind of affirms everything that we're constantly talking about, where people need really individualized health care and holistic health care, where we're looking at the entire picture of each person. I know my mom is a holistic registered. And it's basically just like a kind of certification that they do after they get their RN. And she's been to a lot of really cool conferences and, you know, gotten a lot of information about how stress affects us. And I remember like a very long time ago, her kind of talking about that idea just as it was starting to become popular of epigenetics and how stress and trauma can affect your health.

Danielle: 21:01

I think right now we're really seeing some of the pitfalls of our modern healthcare system. Not just with COVID, but just with, you know, people who are feeling traumatized from just living in the world in 20 20, 20 and 2021. And I think more and more people are gonna realize that like integrative medicines. So having, having all of the miracles that like Western medicine can perform at our fingertips, but also having, you know, holistic medicine. Integrated into that. I really feel like that's going to be the wave of the future. I mean, they're doing it in other countries. Already like in, no, there are wings of pasta, but like there's two wings of a hospital. One is the Western, you know, the biomedicine wing and one is the acupuncture wing and they co-treat with each other. And I mean, that's amazing that they're doing that, but I think that, you know, I hope that one day America we'll get there. We'll see.

Vanessa: 22:00

Yeah, hopefully sooner rather than later. And you might've mentioned this before when you were talking about kind of what ailments that acupuncture can help with but can acupuncture, help with like chronic stress.

Danielle: 22:14

Yeah. So, because acupuncture works with the parasympathetic nervous system. So you have. You know, your sympathetic nervous system, that's your fight and flight response, and you have your parasympathetic nervous system. That's your rest and digest response. And so acupuncture helps to kind of take you out of the fight and flight response and put you into that rest and restore response. Because it works with that. It helps you to like lower your cortisol levels, which is a stress hormone, and just kind of reduce the overall effects of stress. It feels very sedating for people. People feel relaxed. Almost like they took a nap, even though maybe they were just laying there for 30 miles. I don't think that people realize like in our modern world, we're being inundated with so much information all the time we're being inundated with, you know, social media that people are constantly checking, you know, whatever's going on in your work life? The news is like catastrophic all the time. There's, you know, the weather. Getting crazier and crazier, like there's just so much bombarding us so much information, bombarding us all the time and also information that is like

Emily: 23:24

Okay.

Danielle: 23:25

from around the world. Like maybe there was always kind of a lot of catastrophic feeling things happening around the world, but we didn't really know about it. We're in this information age where we're we're we are figuring things out in real time. That's beautiful in some ways, but in other ways that's really, really triggering to our, you know, to our stress hormones. And so I think that's why people need acupuncture these days more than ever, because they do need a space where they can come in and just chill out and get out of that fight and flight response. And just take some time for themselves and, and relax. And de-stress, you know,

Emily: 24:04

Yes, that's definitely so important. I also, it's kind of funny, like you mentioned everybody kind of collaborating on care. Having acupuncture be a huge piece of that. I'm curious about something called dry needling and I don't know very much about this at all, but I had first heard of it when my dad went to physical therapy and I was like, is this just. The non-Chinese version of acupuncture or what is this? So I'm curious if you know anything about that.

Danielle: 24:34

Yeah, that's exactly what this is basically right. Needling is, is simply the application of filiform needles into muscle motor points. And what it's doing is it's trying to loosen up your muscles by triggering those muscle motor points. So dry needling is 100% a. Piece of what we do in acupuncture, but acupuncture is not a piece of dry needling, if that makes sense. So like with acupuncture, you know, where we're taking the constitution, as well as the overall ailment into consideration. And so we're selecting our points, you know, based on what's going on. So, like, for example, if you come in with low back pain, I'm going to needle your low back and I'm going to needle some motor points in your low back to help. Oh, like reduce the overall tension of your low back, but I'm also going to needle some points for whatever your constitution is. So maybe you have low back pain because you're really deficient. And so maybe we need to like boost up your constitution. I'm going to put points in for that. Maybe you have low back pain. You have like an excess issue going on. And so then in that case, we would want to drain some of that excess. So there's a lot of, there's a whole science really that goes into selecting points, some points prescription and that's acupuncture. So that's not what people want. Do dry noodling can do. So with dry needling, some medical doctors can get a certification in it. Physical therapists can get a certification in it. Chiropractors can get a certification in it, and they're all people who have studied the body. So. There that they know what structures are there and they're not going to hurt you. But they haven't studied acupuncture. And so they don't actually know like the science of acupuncture. Right. And the dry needling courses. I don't know how long they are. Obviously I went to school for four years for acupuncture five years. Actually, if you take into consideration, like my doctorate, so. I studied that for a long time. So I don't know, you know, how extensive their training is, but I've heard it could be like a weekend or, you know, not very many hours. So

Emily: 26:42

yeah, that seems problematic.

Danielle: 26:44

yeah, so there's, there's like, some acupuncturists really are super opposed to dry needling. I think as long as people are staying safe and also it is being done by somebody who has studied the body, you know, if it's helping people, then that's great in Oregon where we are only acupuncturists can do dry needling. So chiropractors and doctors and physical therapists can, but other states they can. But basically the more people who are bringing. Awareness to the idea that putting needles into specific points can help relieve pain is, is useful. And honestly, I see so many people who come in and they're like, oh, I got acupuncture once. But it was like done by this chiropractor and it kind of hurt. And I didn't really like it. And I'm like, oh, Okay. well that was dry needling. So let's try it again. You know, it's a little bit of a balance. Scenario and they walk out really loving it. And I've also met people really love dry needling and were really helped by it. And now they moved to Oregon. And so that's why they're seeking me out. So, you know, the more we can bring awareness to helping people with this medicine, I think is, is beneficial in the end. But yeah, you definitely want to make sure that the person knows what they're doing.

Emily: 27:56

Yeah, it's it seems like kind of a cool gateway into acupuncture too. Even if like, you know, it helped you with your low back. Kind of more curious, okay. Like what could this do for other parts of the body? So it seems like decent publicity, but also a little bit cheesy.

Danielle: 28:14

Like just see an acupuncturist because we do dry needling. We just, we do more than that too, you know?

Emily: 28:20

Right? You'd rather see like the top, top expert. That's what we always say about that.

Danielle: 28:24

Yeah.

Emily: 28:24

My one of my last questions. Is there anyone out there who should avoid acupuncture? Is it ever contra-indicated.

Danielle: 28:32

Yeah, I saw that you asked that question and I can't think of any. Buddy, I would say, would be completely contra-indicated. for acupuncture. Now there are times that acupuncture is more appropriate than others. So, you know, for example, if somebody came in and they had a broken bone, I would be like, you need to go to the doc,

Emily: 28:55

Totally

Danielle: 28:56

your bone set, and then come to me and then we'll help you heal from it. But you know, like, we'll help you. With some of the aches and pains of the healing process or come to me after the cast is taken off and I'll help you regain range of motion or that sort of thing. So there's definitely times when acupuncture is more appropriate than others, but I, I can't think of anything that I would say, like this person should absolutely not get acupuncture. I mean, I would say that sometimes people who have, who are really nervous and just can't relax into the needles, I would say, oh, maybe let's try cupping. Let's kind of get you introduced to the idea of bodywork in general, because there are people who come in really nervous to get acupuncture, and then you find out they've never had. Any type of body work, like they've never been touched. Their body is not used to being touched. Right. They're just used to the temperature taken and you know, their height and weight taken and be seen really quickly by a doctor. Usually it's kind of awkward, especially sometimes with gynecology, but you know, and, and so they come in and they kind of have those like white coat syndrome where they're a little afraid of everyone who. You know, has a doctor in front of their name and they're really nervous and they've, their body is not used to body work whatsoever. So there are definitely times when I'd be like, go get a massage, get some copying. We'll work you into feeling more comfortable with acupuncture, you know, maybe get some acupressure first we'll work you in. So feeling more comfortable with acupuncture and then we can kind of slowly go there cause you never want to treat somebody who's so nervous that they can't relax, but then they're going to. Just have a bad experience, right? Like you don't want somebody to be suffering through the experience it's supposed to be enjoyable. Like does it you'll the most comfortable? No, there are times when maybe it's not the most comfortable thing you've ever felt before, but overall it should be a positive experience. So Yeah.

Emily: 30:44

Yeah. I think as somebody who just got done recently by Danielle for the first time, I feel like it was definitely, there were definitely points that felt Like a little bit uncomfortable at times, but it would kind of go away. Like you had mentioned, right. When the needle was going in, I'd like kind of Twitch or feel a little twingy and then it would just completely release and then it was fine.

Danielle: 31:06

Yeah. Or sometimes people will get a muscle for circulation. So that's when your muscle contracts and releases and. It's kind of jarring to them because they're like, oh, I didn't cause my muscle to do that. Like what just happened? Oh my gosh. And, and it doesn't feel, I wouldn't say that it feels necessarily painful, but it feels strong. It's like a strong muscle response and they're like, oh my gosh, what just happened? And then you kind of just have to explain like, oh, that's just your muscle kind of releasing and letting go. But it can be a little jarring at first, you know,

Emily: 31:35

it's sounds almost similar to like a tens machine. When they do the stimuli, the electrostimulation of the muscles, like how your muscle just kind of like moves.

Danielle: 31:44

Yeah, Yeah. exactly. Yeah. It moves on its own and you're like, whoa, what's happening there. Yeah. But yeah, so people often ask me like, does acupuncture hurt? And. I even had a patient who was like, I feel like there's something wrong with me because I like, look on the internet. Is acupuncture supposed to hurt or does acupuncture hurt? And I see all these blogs and they're like, no acupuncture, doesn't hurt. It's painless. And, but like, I don't know. I think sometimes it hurts a little bit and I'm like, okay, well, does it hurt? Like the way it would hurt if you fell down and skinned your knee, like a trauma, does it feel like trauma to your body? And she's like, no. And I'm like, yeah. So it feels a little uncomfortable at times and I wish acupuncturists would be a little bit more. Truthful. Yeah. I think people, so a lot of acupuncturists say, oh, acupuncture doesn't hurt. It's painless because they're trying to, just to get people over their fear of needles. And it definitely would feel the way like a shot feels. It doesn't feel the way a tattoo feels. Right. Like I have people that come in sometimes who are covered in tattoos and will say they're scared of needles. And I'm like, well, I don't think you are because you have so

Emily: 32:54

Yeah.

Danielle: 32:56

But Yeah. so there's a fear of needles. And so a lot of acupuncturists will be like, oh, Accenture is painless, but so acupuncture, I would say it, it's not painful, like trauma painful. But it sometimes feels a little uncomfortable the way like a deep tissue massage might feel like it's not necessarily the most comfortable thing, but it feels therapeutic. And in the end, do you feel better? And that's acupuncturist.

Emily: 33:21

Yeah, that's, it kind of reminds me of when I'm teaching yoga, how we're like, okay, is this sensation filled or is it painful? You know, you can be in a space of discomfort that ultimately is going to provide you a value. Without it being shockingly painful or shockingly comfortable. So before we wrap up, are there any kind of practical tips or things we can leave our listeners with today to implement acupuncture in their lives, whether it's, you know, acupressure related or anything like that?

Danielle: 33:51

So I would say, you know, if you're interested in acupuncture, definitely find an acupuncturist. Don't, don't go to just somebody who just does dry needling. I think that acupuncture is more helpful when you're. Going in with something in mind. So sometimes I'll have people come in and they'll be like, I just want him to try acupuncture. And I'm like, okay, well, do you have anything going on in your body? Do you have any? No. Okay. Do you, is there anything, anything that you can work that you want to work on? No. I just wanted to try it. People just say that they love it and I just wanted to try it and I'm like, okay, well, I'll do like a relaxation treatment on you. And hopefully you can get there, but into that relaxed state, because sometimes when you're is your first time with acupuncture, you're just a little bit nervous. And so you're not. Some people get straight into the relaxed state. Some people it takes them a minute and it takes some like a tr like a session or two. But I would say definitely find an acupuncturist and acupuncture is always better when you're going in trying to work on something. And if it's your first experience with acupuncture, I think that's usually the best time to go in. Because then you can see, you have a tangible experience. You're like, oh, I had back pain and now I feel better. Acupuncture is great. And also I was so relaxed towards the end of my treatment plan. I just love it. Right. So I usually like people to come to me with something in mind that they're working on. Just just so that cause sometimes I hear people go, oh, I tried acupuncture. It didn't really work well, what we were working on. Well, I wasn't really working on okay, well, what, what were you expecting, frankly? You know, like come in with clear expectations that are fair, Right.

Emily: 35:26

Set yourself up for success.

Danielle: 35:28

Yeah, exactly. I mean, As far as, like, how can you incorporate acupuncture into your daily life? I mean, I think it's, I think it's a great thing to find a provider that works for you because not all providers are the perfect fit for everyone. So don't get discouraged. If you go try acupuncture and you didn't really enjoy your experience, like your first experience, Emily, like you didn't really feel like the provider was listening to you. That's obviously not the best provider for you. Maybe some people went into that provider. I just want someone to throw some needles in me and leave me alone and not talk to me too much. Right. Like maybe that was a great provider for some people. So find somebody who resonates with you and that, that goes with any provider for anything that you're seeking, whether it's a yoga instructor or a meditation instructor. Or a chiropractor or a massage therapist. Like you have to find a therapist, a doctor, you have to find somebody that works well for you specifically.

Emily: 36:27

I'm wondering almost if there's like some specific, acupressure point or anything. I don't even know if that exists.

Danielle: 36:33

There is a point in the middle. It's your third eye it's right over your pineal gland. What we think of as our third eye it's right in between our eyebrows and that's for relaxation and mental clarity. So you can always kind of rub that if you're feeling overstimulated, the Vertex of your head to the very top of your head is a big acupuncture point. And that's kind of for mental clarity and it's the idea that like, oh, it's where you're. Where your body. So in acupuncture, we are in between heaven and earth. So we're in between like the celestial realm, we're here having our human experience and then we're standing on like the earth. Right? And so we're kind of a conduit between earth, energy and like celestial energy. This is a little bit more esoteric. This is the more esoteric side of acupuncture. There is a there are acupuncture points on the bottoms of your feet and there that's very grounding. So it's right. Kind of acupuncture point on the bottom of your foot is kidney one, if you want to look it up, but it's kind of right underneath the balls of your. Like toe mounds, your big toe mound. And that's a very grounding point. So sometimes when people are very anxious with acupuncture, I'll kind of do a little bit of like, I'll put the needles in and then I'll sit with them and do acupressure on that point. It's very grounding. And then at the Vertex or the top of your head, that point is like our channel where we channel like the divine, where we channel like the heavenly energy. And so it helps. With mental clarity. So for feeling really bogged down or kind of brain foggy, you can kind of like tap the top of your head top that point. And that's supposed to be helpful as well.

Emily: 38:22

Those are awesome tips. I'm definitely gonna use that foot one for sure.

Danielle: 38:28

Yeah, That's a good one.

Vanessa: 38:31

And for anyone looking for more tips or who's in the Portland area and wants to try out acupuncture maybe because they actually have something going on not to, just to like walk where can they find you?

Danielle: 38:45

So I work uh, Zen space. We have two locations. We have one on 30th and Alberta, and then we have one on 21st and Broadway, 2100 Northeast Broadway. And. I work there and then I have a colleague. Her name is Jen. She works there as well. I mean, Portland is one of those places where you? can throw a stone and hit an acupuncturist. So if you aren't in the Northeast area and You you know, you really want to find an acupuncturist close to you And you're feeling confused. You can always kind of reach out as well. I mean, I went to school here, so a lot of my friends are working around the city and they're great too.

Emily: 39:22

You have a lot of really fun videos on your Instagram, also about acupuncture. You kind of just did a series that probably covers a lot of what we talked about today. So maybe we'll put your Instagram handle in our show notes. If anyone is curious,

Danielle: 39:36

Yeah, please do. I've been trying to do those more often. Just kind of bringing more education to people about acupuncture and I've gotten really good feedback. People seem to really enjoy them. I. Mean to keep doing them. I will keep doing them. It's just, sometimes I need to take a break from like making videos and posting content on, on Instagram. But I do that. So yeah, if anybody has any questions of, you know, things that they have, they want to learn more about Please like, feel free to comment on one of those videos or even just DM me on Instagram because I get a lot of my inspiration for those videos, from questions that people ask me a lot. So.

Emily: 40:20

Yay. Well, thank you so much for being on our podcast today, Danielle, we really appreciate it. And also, if anyone wants more information from Danielle, you definitely should scroll all the way back to like the very beginning. I think Danielle was maybe our first. I guess like eight months ago. And she allowed us to ask her a lot of awesome questions about cupping. So I know you mentioned a couple of times in this episode, so for those of you who are curious, you can go back and listen to that one.

Danielle: 40:50

Yeah, cupping is great too. So

Emily: 40:53

Yes, that's that's my first love for sure. Thanks, Danielle.

Danielle: 40:59

you got it. Thank you.

Vanessa: 41:00

Thanks Danielle.

Danielle: 41:01

No problem.