Vanessa: 0:01

Hey Em. So today I think we're digging into some personal things with Emily.

Emily: 0:11

Yeah. I am excited to share about my own, um, dietary habits.

Vanessa: 0:20

Do you think it's been a journey?

Emily: 0:23

I think for most people it is, but mine like fully wasn't it was like an overnight situation.

Vanessa: 0:31

Hm. Okay. Well, let's find out. Welcome to wellness Smith. So if you are a returning listener, welcome back. I'm glad you're sticking around with us. If you're new. Welcome, today we are going to talk to my co-host Emily about

vanessa recording 1: 0:57

veganism. This is something

Vanessa: 0:59

that's very close to

vanessa recording 1: 1:00

her heart because she

Vanessa: 1:02

is a vegan and has been for how

vanessa recording 1: 1:05

many years, Em?

Emily: 1:07

About seven years.

Vanessa: 1:08

I think a lot of people probably know what veganism is, but some people might be a little bit confused. So can you tell us what the definition of veganism veganism is?

Emily: 1:22

Veganism is a philosophy and a way of living that excludes as far as possible and practicable all forms of exploitation and cruelty to animals for food clothing, or any other purpose. So veganism extends way beyond just what's on your plate.

Vanessa: 1:42

Yes. And I think that's probably something that gets misconstrued a lot because people think of veganism as a diet but it really reaches far beyond that so it's truly not just not eating meat. Or animal products. So tell us more about your story of becoming vegan.

Emily: 2:04

Yeah. So I have been vegan, like we were just saying about seven years. Um, so I was a freshman in college when this happened. I think probably like 80% of people assumed it was a phase that most freshmen in college go through. Um, but it was not So I was actually in a class that we just were talking about the food system and you know, we watched the documentary is like, same. Like basically every other vegan will tell you they watch the documentary isn't that happened for them. Um, and I think, I think we watched food Inc. And I'd always thought kind of about not eating meat before, but it had

Vanessa: 2:43

a vegetarian at this point.

Emily: 2:46

No. So I had wanted to be, but never stuck with it. Never really. Um, like I'd always felt connected to animals, but I'd never really made the deep link between what I was eating and their lives. So until that happened, when I was really presented with it in a college class I just began to think about it. And I remember after I left that class, I usually got a chicken and rice burrito afterwards. And I remember like walking up to the counter and I was looking at all the burritos and I was about to say chicken and rice, but what came out and said instead was being in cheese. And that literally

Vanessa: 3:31

a good option.

Emily: 3:32

Yeah. And then I never ate me to get, like, it was just really like a switch flipped and I just never wanted it again. It never was even on my mind again, after that, I think I was vegetarian for like about a month. And then I was just like, no, I can't really, I can't keep eating the other animal products

Vanessa: 3:54

Right. Like, you felt like you were missing a piece of it.

Emily: 3:57

Right. Yeah. It was just kind of like a small bit of what I had learned about treatment of animals and it just didn't really make sense for me.

Vanessa: 4:08

And I think too, um, it makes me think of. Just going back to that. It's not a diet. And if your motivation is completely just, I want to lose weight. And I think that if I become vegan, I'm going to lose weight or something like that. It's not something that you're going to stick with. You definitely have to have a deeper connection with it.

Emily: 4:35

Yeah. Even before I became an anti diet dietician, I realized like, Oh, the people that I know that were doing it for health reasons, don't stick with it. And I realized that without even understanding fully, that was because they viewed it as a diet and diets don't work. But it's something that is super obvious for sure. If people are doing it as a diet, it doesn't last very long. And. You know, it's remiss not to mention that along with veganism comes a huge, huge dose of diet culture because people really view it as this clean diet. And it's so not that way. It can definitely be misappropriated by diet culture, into a weight loss plan, or, you know, there's certain physicians out there, out there that make really broad claims about health and veganism that are sometimes kind of untrue because there's a lot of other factors

Vanessa: 5:32

Sometimes I think of like the, I don't know if it's a meme or whatever, where it's like, I'm vegan today. Like today I'm being vegan.

Emily: 5:43

No, that's not it.

Vanessa: 5:45

that's what other people think of too. Like, Oh, it's just like a phase thing. And for someone who's truly a vegan or a longterm vegan, a life vegan, it's not just a phase or like a cute thing to say.

Emily: 6:00

Right. It's so funny that you say this because I remember my cousin for a while is dabbling in veganism. And she's vegan now, but I remember her being like, what are the right words I can use? Because I don't want to just be out here peddling this cute trend when I know it's something that's so important to you and like your way of life. So she was like, how can I be respectful and talk about the way I eat without, you know, misappropriating, like we just said so I thought that was really cool.

Vanessa: 6:29

Yeah. And it's funny because like, I, like I said, I'm not vegan, but that's something that like really revs me up. Like when people claim to be vegan, When they're not really. They're just like, Oh, I'm going to be vegan this week. That really revs me up because I'm like, if you are going to not eat meat or animal products this week, that's fine, but you don't need to label it.

Emily: 6:55

You do not need the extra attention and consideration if you're going to not eat it for like one day.

Vanessa: 7:01

Right. Exactly. And. So I think another thing, so plant-based is something that is really, I guess, kind of trendy right now. So can we talk about the difference between plant-based in veganism?

Emily: 7:18

Yeah. So there's a lot of confusion about this, for sure. Even among vegan people, sometimes things said I'm, plant-based like products or something and then they have eggs in them. There's definitely not a hard and fast definition for plant-based diet. I think a lot of it comes from the whole food plant-based diet that some of these vegan physicians have promoted in the past. And those consists of all minimally processed fruits, veggies, whole grains, beans, nuts seeds, and it typically does exclude all animal products. But what you were saying, it's typically. Called a diet. So a lot of the times people say, Oh, I'm going to eat plant-based right now or something like that. Or I typically eat more plant-based um, but they'll occasionally still have eggs or something, which I'm fine with. I'd rather those people have a word really seems like they need to then to just take veganism and say, and use that instead. So I'm kind of happy that there's another term for it that doesn't have anything to do with. True. Removal of animal exploitation.

Vanessa: 8:27

I think, especially now there's a lot of people that truly do eat a more plant-based diet. So just meaning they're eating more. More plants than not. And so, yeah, it is so much better that they can say plant-based versus, well, I eat mostly vegetarian or mostly vegan with, you know, mixed in, like you said some eggs or I have cheese once in a while, or I eat meat when I go out or something like that when it's like, it's a lot easier if you can just say, okay, I eat plants mostly in general. I know this is kind of a pet peeve of mine because. Well, you know, this Emily, I just don't understand unless you are, you know, you're someone who's vegan or maybe you have certain food restrictions. I truly don't understand why people feel such a big need to label the way they eat.

Emily: 9:21

Yeah, it's very confusing. I think sometimes it comes with like a tension. I think people just want to feel like special about the way they eat or like a lot of the times we get positive reinforcement for restricting foods like as in society. So I think people are like, Oh, if I say this, then, you know, it just gives me kind of a positive superior. Shine.

Vanessa: 9:49

Some people might see saying I'm vegan almost as like a status symbol.

Emily: 9:56

Yeah, definitely. Or people like, make it more about how they feel about not being vegan. When you tell them that you're vegan people might be like, well, I'm not, you know, I don't know, like that's, that's fine. I know. Um, so there's that side of it too.

Vanessa: 10:14

So what do you think makes veganism different from other, uh, quote unquote restrictive diets?

Emily: 10:22

I think the main thing to understand about veganism is that we're not removing any nutrients. So if you look at certain diets like Atkin's diet back in the day, at least I hope that's back in the day.

Vanessa: 10:37

It needs to stay back in the

Emily: 10:39

Yeah, we've, we've conquered that one. I hope. So for that we remove carbs or, well, I mean, we can look at the ketogenic diet right now, um, which is a hot mess and that's when you're increasing so much fat and you're eating so few carbs. So veganism doesn't do anything like that. Basically. It's just taking out. Food groups that you may have eaten before, but there's always something to replace it with. So we're not restricting ice cream or we're not restricting milk, or, you know, these days we're not even restricting eggs. There's literally so many vegan alternatives that we have access to that vegans in 2021 do not need to feel restricted, but there's kind of an asterisk to that. Is that. You know, there's access around food, right. Which is always a conversation when we're talking about what people eat. and you know, like I live in Portland, Oregon, and it's very vegan-friendly here. And I definitely took my own privilege and moved here. And that was one of the reasons. So definitely understanding that everyone has the ability to do that. And you might live in the middle of Kansas and you might, um, no offense to Kansas. Just the first one I thought of really, um, you know, you might live in the middle of Kansas and don't even have a grocery store around and it might be a little bit harder to find vegan cream cheese. Than it is for me, who can walk down the street and find like six different local vegan cheese shops.

Vanessa: 12:17

And I think it's important to remember too. Even if you are someone who's thinking about being vegan and you're worried about something like food access, or like going out to restaurants with friends or something like that. Um, even if you don't live in a place like Portland that has tons and tons of vegan restaurants and options. Most places can make accommodations for you and from, you know, eating out with Emily. I feel like in most cases they're pretty good about it. If you ask for, you know, certain substitutions, there was one incidence where I was with Emily and it was a pretty bad experience at a sushi restaurant. Do you remember that?

Emily: 13:01

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's literally the first. That was like the first time we met maybe, or second. I think like he was trying to tell me that something like some vegans don't eat food, that's fried in the same area as non vegan food. And so, like, he was trying to tell me that something wasn't vegan, but I was like, no, I'm vegan. Like, I'll, I'll let you know, like, just give me the information and then I can make my own choice. But yeah, he was being like really sassy. I think I wrote them a really bad Yelp review.

Vanessa: 13:32

You got them with the Yelp? Yeah, I think it was something like you ordered like 10 per of vegetables and then it came out and it was just a plate of raw veggies.

Emily: 13:41

Yeah.

Vanessa: 13:42

like going out to a sushi restaurant, that's like, not really, I think what anyone has in mind is just like a plate pullover or veggies or going out anywhere in general.

Emily: 13:53

And people who are vegan for ethical reasons. Usually we just call that ethical vegans just to make sure that we differentiate from being a dietary vegan. You're looking to have a similar experience as everyone around you. So. That's definitely something that can make it harder when you feel like, Oh, everyone's eating whatever they want and all of this great stuff. And then they gave me this plate of raw vegetables. So there's definitely a social aspect to it.

Vanessa: 14:21

For sure. And. When we think about being began, I think a lot of people think of restriction and that makes them think of maybe nutrient deficiencies. Is there any certain nutrient deficiencies that vegans should be aware of.

Emily: 14:39

Yeah. So there's really only one. Nutrient that I tell absolutely every single person that I'm working with, no matter what. And that's B12, the B12 vitamin is fortified into a lot of vegan foods, but the absorption we don't really know about. So it's better off since it's something that's very key and neural functions. B12 is not something you want to be deficient in at all. So it's always good for vegan people to take a supplement. On a daily basis even, and really just check your levels. So, you know, if your lower, your doctor could recommend a B12 shot or something like that. And usually these deficiencies don't show up for a long time because the body stores a lot of B12, so it can take some time. My favorite thing is when people just become vegan and in two weeks think they've developed this really huge B12 deficiency. And I'm like, no, it's going to be all right. Just start taking it now. So aside from that supplements are so individual and, you know, I mean, I think everybody should take vitamin D because it's important that we all don't get enough and most of us are low. But so that's just the same thing for everybody, but yeah, the B12 is definitely a hundred percent needed and it doesn't really mean that, Oh, there's something inherently wrong with being vegan because you can't get all your nutrients. B12 used to come from soil and our foods. But now that we do things like clean our food before we eat it, instead of just like ripping it from the ground, we just only get it from animal foods because there's still, you know, not eating like the cleanest things all the time, eating like dirt and grass and stuff.

Vanessa: 16:19

So in thinking about nutrient deficiencies too, I feel like we're a little bit remissed to think that just vegans are going to have nutrient deficiencies as a society or maybe more in the nutrition world to think, Oh my gosh. Cause there's a lot of people that aren't necessarily. Labeling their diet, you know, in a restrictive way that are missing out on a lot of foods. And that might be deficient also. So I'm not sure that we can necessarily say, Oh, you know, because you're vegan, you're going to have this deficiency. I mean, I think it's good to be aware that, you know, like B12, you want to be especially cognizant of that. But I think there's a little bit of a stigma of like, if you're vegan, you're going to be deficient.

Emily: 17:09

And I think there's a couple of reasons why that happens. There's either people who actually develop the deficiencies, it could be just because you don't know the basics of a proper vegan diet. And that's when, you know, you need to be seeing a dietician to be knowing that if you're taking this radically different shift in your eating habits, then it might warrant getting some guidance. And then the other part of it is definitely that vegans are placed on kind of a pedestal because we view veganism as inherently healthier than being an omnivore. So there's a lot of really intense scrutiny about the dietary habits of vegan people by non vegan people.

Vanessa: 17:56

I know too, Emily, in your practice, you work with clients that are vegan or maybe clients that are thinking of being vegan. How does that go with. Someone who maybe has a past eating disorder.

Emily: 18:11

Yeah. So it's really important to mention that sometimes when, you know, if you're actively in an eating disorder or you're in. Really acute recovery that restricting foods might, it might not be the best time for you to go vegan. But there's so many other different things that you can do, to support animal rights and the environment. If those are kind of motivating factors for you, people can volunteer at farm sanctuaries. Places were displaced. Former farm animals. That we're going to be slaughtered for food and then ended up being rescued. You can go volunteer your time. There. You can start to perform any different kind of activism in your community. You could start by just avoiding buying leather. Um, if you want to take the other tenants of veganism there before your diet, usually it's other way around, but if for whatever reason you have disordered eating or eating disorder that doesn't support new. Adjustments to your diet. And those are great ideas.

Vanessa: 19:21

So those are awesome ways that, you know, aren't necessarily dietary that you can support animals if you're not in a place where you know, incorporating that in to your diet or being vegan in your diet is. Going to be right for you at the moment. And that's definitely something that you should talk with your care team about. So I know that a lot of. People who suffer from eating disorders. If they are interested in being vegan, they're kind of directed against doing that. And I know some of that is because we're not clear, it's hard to be clear on what the intention is. So what do you think about that?

Emily: 20:09

Yeah. So this is kind of a complex topic because a lot of the times veganism itself gets kind of a bad rap for encouraging an eating disorder. Usually people who have an eating disorder might use veganism as a socially appropriate way of restricting foods. It becomes a lot easier to decline offers of food. When you can just simply say, Oh, I'm vegan. I don't eat that. That being said, Being vegan for ethical reasons is a completely separate thing. And being vegan, won't spontaneously incite an eating disorder. It's just, if you have those tendencies, it can be used as kind of a mask to restrict. And I know there's a lot of people too, who are vegan for ethical reasons and do not want to stop being vegan for ethical reasons, but who also struggle with disordered eating as a separate issue? And that requires a lot more nuance and there's no reason why, since there's so many different vegan foods available, that person might be able to remain vegan in recovery. And it's just going to require a lot more information. but eating disorder treatment places used to and still do today, just completely deny any vegan patients because of this. Claim that veganism is always a diet that they're on to restrict and which can be really harmful and can be a barrier to vegan people getting care.

Vanessa: 21:43

Yeah. I understand that from the perspective of, you know, we want to make sure they're not having any excuse to restrict, but I think after, you know, some. Cool. A quick therapy session. I think a therapist could pretty quickly delineate if it's, they're just doing it for restriction or if they're actually doing it for ethical reasons.

Emily: 22:09

Yeah, absolutely. I've had someone who was denied treatment because of being vegan and they're like, Oh, you're just doing it for a diet. Well, she had vegan theme tattoos all over her body. So it's kind of like, I mean, that's a pretty, that's a pretty extreme way to promote your. Diet. Um, if that was really just so you know, it's, if it's something that remains important to someone, then we should give that person respect. And if that's their philosophy, you know, you wouldn't take a religious person's food restrictions and try to reverse them. And this is kind of, you know, for a lot of vegan people, it's just as important as that. And it's a code of ethics to them. So it's a quick way for your vegan patient to completely distrust you and run the other way.

Vanessa: 23:05

What's the biggest myth surrounding veganism that bothers you the most.

Emily: 23:12

Oh, so it's kind of funny because there's the time old vegans don't get enough protein, but there's also the time old vegan people yelling. But of course they do. And it's kind of funny because both parts are hard to take because on the one hand, it's not very hard to get protein on a vegan diet. You at least for me personally, my body will tell me when I haven't had enough, I'll feel hungry. I won't be satisfied for long after my meal. But, you know, you should still have a main protein source at every meal, right? It's not like, you know, if you were eating a burger for lunch every day, and then you start eating a salad, it's not because vegan food doesn't have enough protein it's because you chose to eat a salad instead of something heartier. Right. But it's not completely easy for most people. Sometimes people don't know what has protein and what doesn't. So sometimes I will get patients that are confused and they don't want to like admit that because it's such a common myth that they don't want to say, Oh, I'm actually unsure. If I'm getting enough. vegan proteins are not absorbed as readily as animal flesh. Which should seem pretty obvious so sometimes you do have to be a little more aware that you have protein at your meals, but that it's also very easy to ensure that's happening.

Vanessa: 24:40

And I also think that as a society, we're a little bit too obsessed with protein. Like I think everyone thinks they need way. More protein than they actually do. Like, it's not like we're seeing a lot of protein deficiencies in the United States.

Emily: 25:00

We just don't get that in our country. And you might see like a malnutrition type of situation, but that's on a caloric level if you're not eating enough calories, but yeah, protein, it's just not really something that. People struggle with, but I think that vegan people should feel okay to come out and be like, Hey, I'm actually kind of confused on this. If they've never learned before, since that's not how everybody grows up.

Vanessa: 25:25

Right. I'm by no means saying that protein isn't important. It's definitely very important. And if you are someone who is vegan, you're vegetarian, uh, even if you're an omnivore, I mean, it's important to think about, but I just think that people think that like, protein deficiency is a little more prevalent than it is.

Emily: 25:49

Yeah, definitely the armchair dietician people for sure will come at you with

Vanessa: 25:54

so for anyone, even if you're not vegan, it's definitely important to be adding more plants into your diet. I don't think you're going to meet a dietician or nutritionist or I don't think anyone in the health field, that's going to tell you to eat less plants. Emily, do you have any tips on how you can incorporate more plants in your meals?

Emily: 26:17

Yeah. So even though we have this whole conversation about being, as I'm not being a diet, there's still many tenants of plant-based nutrition that you can apply. I think that replacing your protein source is probably one of the easier options. So if you normally have, you know, chicken with your salad, you could try beans or. You know, if you have dairy milk in your breakfast or dairy yogurt, you can try for a non-dairy option. Um, I think that those are just replacing the products that you are already eating with a vegan alternative is probably the easiest way to start increasing your intake of plants.

Vanessa: 26:59

How about, I think we should touch on this too, because I think some people get a little bit confused, uh, with. Some vegan subs, substitutes in particular, maybe meat, substitutes, like an impossible burger or beyond meat and they're looking at it and thinking, Oh my gosh, it's all these ingredients. I thought this was healthier for me.

Emily: 27:22

Yeah, it's, it comes up a lot with the vegan meats because the vegan meat products have a lot of fat in them and they have a lot of sodium and they're meant to taste and have a similar profile to beef. So it's in order to cover those tastes markers, we need a similar flavor profile. And so. We use fat for that. So a lot of vegan burgers and everything has like beyond me or impossible burger, or they're trying to give you a burger that's high in iron and protein, along with the same , satiety cues of having a. Kyle burger. So you're definitely going to see an increase in saturated fat in those foods. It's not that every burger has that there's some vegan burgers that are made with, you know, rice and mushrooms, and those might only have two grams of protein. Right? So it's just always important to be looking at the labels with those types of things and picking one that is going to meet your needs the best for me. I usually, since I'm eating those foods as though I used to. Eat the non vegan counterparts. Um, you know, I want a burger with protein. If I eat a burger with two grams of protein, that's a snack.

Vanessa: 28:45

And I think it's really important for people to remember with those kinds of. Of things like an impossible burger beyond meat. They're not designed to be a healthier option. They're designed to be a non-meat option that tastes really similar. So I feel like sometimes there's this argument out there like, Oh, but it's not healthy. It's not supposed to be.

Emily: 29:09

Yeah. And so there's a really unfair vilifying of some of the vegan products that are usually still lower in fat or what have you, whatever thing we've decided to demonize that week, then the animal counterpart anyways, but there's still like expecting the vegan version to be so much healthier. And I think that's. Where we run into some problems.

Vanessa: 29:35

I think that people just automatically, you know, assimilate vegan with healthy. I mean, there's a lot of non nutrient dense foods that are vegan.

Emily: 29:48

And it's like, it just makes you curious as what are people really even referencing when they say healthy, you know, it's such a broad term who knows what people are even thinking when they say it. So it's really never. That kind of thinking doesn't really serve anybody in any way.

Vanessa: 30:08

So, if you are someone who, who is currently vegan or thinking about becoming vegan and you maybe want some additional help from a dietician, you can absolutely work with Emily. so You can find her on Instagram at Emily Ray wellness

Emily: 30:25

Yeah, you can find me@emilyraywellnessoninstagramoremilyraywellness.com. And I have a form submission option for folks who might be interested in becoming vegan, just exploring plant-based nutrition in a non diet approach.

Vanessa: 30:43

Thank you so much for tuning into this week's episode of wellness MIS we would be so, so grateful. If you would rate, subscribe and review, let us know what you love about our podcast and make sure you tune in next week for a really awesome episode with a pelvic floor therapist.