Vanessa: 0:00

hey, so we've been wanting to record this episode for you for a really long time, and we're really excited for you to listen. Um, so let's get right into it.

Emily: 0:17

Welcome to wellness myths. Today we have Aaron Flores. He is a registered dietician with a private practice in Calabasas, California. He also works at center for discovery as a senior coordinator for weight inclusive care. He uses intuitive eating and health at every size in his work to help individuals learn how to make peace with food and their bodies. He is a certified body trust provider, and he also is the cohost of the popular podcast. Dietitians unplugged. Welcome Erin.

Aaron: 0:46

Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Emily: 0:48

Yeah, we're so excited to have you, and I'm doubly excited because basically 20% of the reason why I reached out was because you had an Instagram post with a West wing shirt on. Yeah. Okay. Maybe like 40%

Aaron: 1:04

Thank you.

Emily: 1:06

an important distinction because that's one of my favorite shows ever.

Aaron: 1:09

Oh, my God. I'm like such a wing nut. It's a little bit of a problem.

Emily: 1:13

Yeah, it was like, my parents were really into it and then my husband was really into it. And they're like, you have to watch this. Like I'm only 25. I don't even know. Like when it came out, I was probably really young, but I got into it like late in the game and I'm obsessed with it.

Aaron: 1:28

Yeah, no, I it's something I tell everyone, like, no, you have to watch the West wing. It's just maybe the best TV ever. Okay.

Emily: 1:35

Yeah, it totally is.

Vanessa: 1:36

I think some of the like dirtiest glares I've ever gotten from my husband is if I've asked to watch something else when he was watching less swing, because I admit it. Lee never got into it. Cause I never, you know, it's like once you don't watch the first episode and you're not into it, you're kind of out. And I think those are probably some of the dirtiest Sclaris that I've gotten from him.

Aaron: 2:03

I can see that.

Emily: 2:05

Craig does love the West wing. I talk about it with her husband because she doesn't watch it. So our listeners are pretty familiar with intuitive eating and health at every size. We talk about it like every other word, but less so with the framework of body trust. So could you explain that a little bit more?

Aaron: 2:22

Yeah, absolutely. It's a certification that I received from be nourished, who are a couple of folks out in Portland, Oregon, Hilary KV, and Dana Sturtevant. And the certification is basically a framework where, you know, principles of intuitive eating and health at every size are included, but it adds a really. In depth and an important social justice lens to all of us. So it incorporates an understanding of the impact of weight stigma on the individual. It also brings in some, you know, some trauma informed care philosophies, as well as feminist theory of, therapy in addition to a lot of other things. And, and that's sort of like the backend part of it. The sort of the front end or, or I think what resonates with me and the people that engage in it with me is I think it's at the coming home to your body. It's a reclamation of a trust that was lost maybe earlier in life for a lot of understandable reasons. It's acknowledging that. The relationship with our body is one that needs to be nurtured and it needs to be nurtured with a lot of compassion and kindness and non-judgment, and it's a relationship that has been broken on the backs of diet culture and, and fatphobia. And for me, what was really powerful about body trust and, embracing it for myself, doing the certification and then. Practicing from it now is it provides a context for some really uncomfortable, difficult, but healing conversations around bodies in our society. And I wasn't finding that in any other. Training or like, or, or even approach towards body image. I was finding most other things that I found were very surface level and, and not centering fat bodies in the discussion. It was, you know, this discussion of bodies from a perspective of, of a smaller body or a thin body that didn't resonate with me and didn't, and doesn't resonate with a lot of my clients.

Emily: 4:43

It's almost like when these really thin, usually white women posts like there. You know, body kind of contorted around to appear larger, just so they can kind of like glom on to this movement. That was never really started for that specific person. Anyways.

Aaron: 5:00

Yeah. And, and so it it's it, I don't know, again, they provided like language for me and doing this work and provided community, in doing this work, it provided a lot of context for why this, why this is such a struggle.

Emily: 5:14

It's almost like with intuitive eating and, health at every size it's can be a little more on the individual level. And this sounds more like a collective awakening type of vibe.

Aaron: 5:25

Yeah. I mean, I think there's parts of that for sure. And I think there is a lot of individual work within body trust as well. And I think it's embracing the importance of both, at least for me. Right. That's how I've, you know, uh, how I use it, how I like to interpret it, and apply it.

Vanessa: 5:43

I'm curious too, in your education and in your opinion, when do you think. I think that trust or relationship with your body starts to break down? I mean, we've seen it at pretty young ages, but how young do you think that begins to happen?

Aaron: 6:03

It's a really good question. And. You know, some of the research points to, you know, as early as five and six, when kids are beginning to understand what is a good body versus a bad body, what kind of bodies are acceptable in this world? So I, I think it, you know, I think it happens when we're too young to really have the tools to. No what's happening. I would say in that age range, right of five, six, I think definitely during adolescence, it is very challenging and hard for folks. I think I see it a lot with folks as they start to build autonomy from their family and, and some individuation. So, you know, I think it's really understandable to see that trust began to erode in childhood and adolescence. Okay.

Emily: 6:56

I think I noticed so much, especially that age when kids are kind of figuring out that other people might be different than them. And they're kind of really loud about commenting on those differences. Um, and I've seen multiple times when kids will be like, Oh, that person's fat or something like that. And the parent is very quick to be like, don't say that, like, that's such a bad word and that's not something that, you know, we use and that's such an insult or whatever. And I feel like that's kind of. Just cementing for them that that's not something that you can say.

Aaron: 7:29

Yeah. And I think those experiences happen. As a parent, my kids are 13 now. Um, I noticed that there were really subtle body messages, even in homework at like first grade and second grade. And I noticed it around. Yeah. In the school system like it around curriculum, you know, there were like examples of, you know, Oh, this is healthy, this is not healthy. And yes, for sure, from families too about, you know, how language is going to be used.

Vanessa: 7:59

Thinking back, even to myself, I remember being really, really young. One of my first friends who I probably. Met when I was in preschool. And I don't know if they still have sizing like this now, but then there was like regular size and there was slim and I was not a slim and my friend was a slim. And I remember thinking about that and thinking, I wish my pants were slim and I was like five years old.

Aaron: 8:27

Again, it's like something that kids are not really prepared for and, and parents, uh, you know, I'm going gonna say any adult, unless they've done a lot of work, might not really be prepared again to like, how do we name these things that are happening to us on onto us often without consent and. Have a discussion about how this is affecting us and how problematic it is.

Vanessa: 8:57

And I think now, you know, we're starting to, we have this body positive movement going on and it seems like, especially on social media, it's mainly women are represented. How do you think we can change that? So men feel represented in that space as well.

Aaron: 9:18

Yeah. Yeah, it's a really good question. And the answer is, I don't know yet, to be honest, I think it's a really larger question than what, what we see on social media, but also how we. H how we can move in to discussing this and acknowledging the effects of fatphobia on all bodies. And, you know, I think the, the typical narrative, because there is a lot of misogyny in diet culture, and it is affected female identified folks in a much. Different way more prolonged time that it's just a more acceptable conversation to come into. And I think for male identified folks, because it's rather relatively new, that dye culture has emphasized so much. On on the male body that I think there's just less framework and acceptance for. This is a topic that it's okay to discuss. So I think that's one thing. I think the other thing that I, find is that, and it's sort of like the same thing that you mentioned earlier is because there aren't as many voices discussing this. We're looking for. Okay. What's the answer to the male body image experience. And the answer is it's varied. It's not one narrative. It's not one story. It's a very complex and. You know, nuanced discussion that needs many voices. We need, you know, voices of, of different races. We need voices of different gender identities. We need different body sizes. We need different socioeconomic discussions around this. And what I'm finding is that it is impacting folks. And it is impacting them in a really negative way. There's just this sort of desert of possibilities to have an open discussion about it. And when a lot of folks. Male identified folks, try to have this conversation. They're shut down in a lot of ways and it's dismissed, I think, especially because of how the fitness industry targets, male identified folks and how like this whole bro culture, bio hacking life hacking bullshit shows up around male identified folks as well.

Emily: 11:57

My husband is a programmer and he's definitely not a brogrammer which is like that specific type that's like into that hyper optimizing, everything has to be so efficient and they start to apply that to the body. I've definitely had some interesting conversations with people that he's worked with or known over

Aaron: 12:17

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, those are the dudes who invented Soylent.

Emily: 12:21

Yes Soylent. It was like in his college house, he lived with like eight other dudes. And I remember seeing the Soylent and I remember them being like, this is like changing my life. I'm like, I mean, it's like canola oil and a bunch of other random. I just don't see how it's like changing everything. But for them it was like just about the convenience of not even having to worry or connect with the body at all in this. Yes, such a problem. I'm curious how people are doing right now

Aaron: 12:52

Could they have come up with a better name too. Like Soylent sounds like something I should put on my car if it's not running very well. Like, you know, I think you're low on Soylent and, or it sounds like something I might've learned in, like when I was working at the hospital, like, Oh, that's a level two Soylent in the room. You might want to put on some, some hazard clothes,

Emily: 13:13

or it kinda sounds like a tube feed or something,

Aaron: 13:15

Yeah. Yeah.

Emily: 13:16

which, I mean, it kind of basically is, for people who don't know. So I went to this just a little beverage that you can drink supposedly in place of meals.

Aaron: 13:26

Don't do it.

Emily: 13:28

No, no slightly we're against silent. You were talking about that conversation and having people, you know, relate to each other and you run a type of male identifying body image group, right.

Aaron: 13:41

Yeah, I do. I just call it a men's body trust group and I run it like a support group and we have, you know, a small number of folks participating. I try to keep it under 10 minutes and it's. Really a place to just check in, every other week and see how folks are doing and experiencing life in their body. And really like the discussions that come up in that group are, are amazing. I mean, it gives such a clear picture of how, of how. This is impacting folks. And you know, when, when, when we can find the space to actually talk about it in a nonjudgmental way, there is some shared, uh, you know, uh, uh, Kristen now calls it common humanity. Right? We see that, Oh, I'm not the only one experiencing this and I'm not the only one suffering from this. And if I can, you know, share my story, I, I realize, Oh, this other person same way. I'm not alone in this struggle anymore. And I think it makes a really, really important entry piece for that self compassion that we all need.

Vanessa: 15:02

So in your groups, what are some, if you can, or don't mind telling us what are some common, things that you're finding male, identifying people are really struggling with

Aaron: 15:17

to be so broad there, but, um, everything, I mean, I think what I've appreciated is is that if, this is for anyone, right? It doesn't matter who, who the clients we work are working with, or, or a group facilitator or the, the, the, the other members involved comfortable and know that, confines of this, of this group or, or in my session with my, with my dietician or therapist, that this is it's okay to go there. Is that people I think, do want to talk about these things. And when we find that safe space, it becomes really, um,

Emily: 17:07

It seems like too, as we were kind of mentioning earlier, diet culture is so patriarchal. And so the group that you're providing for. People who I think a lot of the times shoulder, the burden of the blame always. And we don't realize that male identifying people are affected by all of this stuff as well in different ways. And so I'm sure that's so valuable for them to have this kind of safe space where they don't have to worry about, Oh, do I suffer enough from this? That's really cool.

Aaron: 17:39

important distinction to, to name for folks too, is that, you know, we can, we can suffer from patriarchy, right? We are affected by it as well. Again, it might be it's different, but it, but it's still there and it's still one of those forces that is showing up in our society. That is a form of oppression.

Vanessa: 18:02

So it makes me think of, I just saw an article about, the COVID-19 vaccine and how toxic masculinity is. Endangering lots of people's lives because it's causing a lot of male identifying people to feel that they don't need a vaccination. And I think that is just a really great stark example of how powerful and dangerous toxic masculinity can be.

Aaron: 18:42

couple months. And it's also really sad, again, it's like, these things I mentioned earlier, right? Compassion and non-judgment and curiosity, right? Those are, it seems like a, not the kryptonite, but like the, the there's a Fort masculinity holds up a force field to those, right. And the masculinity in the sense of, I'm not allowed to feel feelings, I'm not allowed to write, uh, explore deeper things. It's, it's that type of masculinity. And I think. The reality is that masculinity includes those things, but people have this. Such a rigid view of what it means to be a man in this world

Emily: 20:00

I think that for so many men, it's like, they're almost. Sometimes these feelings are so unacceptable, in society for them to have that, it's just kind of bubbling under the surface and they don't even know what's going on really, because we've kind of forced that socialization as you're mentioning to just kind of push it down and, Oh, that's not masculine to have something like compassion or. You know, understanding or self care, all of those things. I don't see men like in the bath with face mask on being like my self care today, you know, like it's just not as prevalent in for them.

Aaron: 20:46

not being in touch, right. I think the body trust language to me there is, you know, being, not being able to inhabit the space below your neck, that I only inhabit the space above my neck. That's where it's safe. That's where it's comfortable for me to drop down into my body is very unsafe. And, and I think, you know, I think that's part of, uh, where, where I think people see self care, right. In just one way when in reality self care might be listen. Um, I'm, uh, I am going to take some time off. Right. And I need to like do something alone and it might not be a bath. Right. But, but it might be like, listen, I'm going to go hit golf balls for, for an hour. Right or I, or I am going to like, not check work, email. After eight o'clock or seven o'clock and I'm going to be like fully present at home and I'm going to like give myself a lunch break. Right. It's like, it's some of these things that, that, um, and I realized that that's a pretty privileged statement depending on how you work and what you do for work. Um, but I think there's this idea of like, it's just slowing down, right? It's just being able to say, like, this is. I think this is what I need right now. Like, I might need to just like, take some deep breaths and take a glass of water, or I might need to go out and like hit a punching bag for like 20 minutes. Right? Like self-care can take many forms. That's where the curiosity comes in. Right. Of like what is going to help me feel more or allow myself to feel more connected to my body.

Vanessa: 22:28

Yeah, I think that's so valuable dimension because so many times we think of like, I need to add more or do more or, you know, whatever it is. But sometimes like you said, it's just. Stopping and maybe taking that time to take breaths or stopping to assess just what your needs are in that moment. So I know Emily and I both in our female from friendships find that, um, our female friends that have ma male identifying partners, struggle with body image and then end up, you know, either it's either a cycle of maybe eating a lot for gains and going to the gym all the time, or they're trying to lean out and. It for some, it seems like they're always stuck in that kind of cycle. And I think they're not really talking about it a lot. But that can't be a great space to be in.

Aaron: 23:29

the cycle of diet culture is it's, it's so predictable. Um, it's so it's, it's intense. And when folks are starting, it, it feels sort of euphoric, right? It feels like. This is what I've been searching for, but very soon after it, it doesn't, it doesn't feel that way. And, and I really think that one of the things that perpetuates this cycle, especially amongst a lot of male identified folks, is that there's no other option for them, right. It's like, Oh, if I want to. Try to eat differently or have a different relationship with my body or move my body. It automatically fits into this Narrative of, okay, I got to go to the gym. I got to lift. I gotta have, you know, now I gotta start counting macros. I gotta like pay attention to how much protein I consumed before. And after workouts, I got to have a cheat day. I got it again. It sort of fits into this biohacking, stuff. And that's the presentation or it's like, Oh, I got it. Or I'm going to go to like, WeightWatchers right. Cause that's what my partner has done And I think as that our partner's gonna like leap into it with us. And sometimes it doesn't happen that way. And that is really hard. It's like really challenging. And, and I think for those folks who have, have done that, right, who sort of leaped out of diet culture and into this more healing space around food and body is understanding like sort of reflecting what. How much work it took for me to take that leap and the, what I can hope for, right. With my partners, that they can start to start that process. And, you know, sometimes we can't force them to have it as quickly as we want it to. But it is so helpful for us when they do embrace this work as well, because it. It, you know, becomes a, a space where how this is impacting us and set boundaries.

Emily: 26:51

When I started on this journey, my husband was very supportive and he was like, Oh, this seems great. And I'm just gonna like, do whatever you do kind of thing. But at times, you know, it's hard because it almost, which I see so much with the anti diet, dieticians or therapists and whatever, it almost becomes like, uh, Another set of rigidity that we just traded all those food rules and judgment for. And then now we're ending like judging the other people that haven't quite made it there yet. Um, so I think that's really important to watch out for too, cause it's easy to do with your partner with a partner, especially.

Aaron: 27:31

yeah, hard as we do this. Right. Cause we're, we're fearful of, is this going to change my relationship? Right? How much of like my body changes? Am I still gonna, is my partner still gonna find me attractive? And, And I think what I. everyone the ability to lean into these conversations, might show up for us and finding partners where really through them, right. W w it deepens sort of that relationship. It can, show up for each other.

Vanessa: 28:25

what do you think? Maybe an and I don't know if you have any off the top of your head here, but with starting. You know, tougher conversations like that with a partner. Um, how do you think, do you have any advice for conversation starters or something that a partner could say to be supportive? Hmm.

Aaron: 28:55

uh, I think the, the things that, that sort of come to mind are just sort of, that I've found both useful in, in my relationship, um, but also in, in supporting clients is one of the. Early things that my partner and I did before we got married was went to like this sort of, pre-marriage class and the therapist running. It talked about signposting and signposting. Uh, we use all the time in our house. It's like, I'm going to tell you something. And after it, all I need you to say is. Wow, that sucks. I'm so sorry. Right. And it's sort of like giving sort of priming the response we want, instead of leaving it up to the person to, to try to sit with it right. Or, or provide some, some feedback. And I think in some ways, being able to feed the answer to folks as we share. The experience of being in our body is really helpful. Hey, I'm going to tell you some things about how I'm feeling in my body that are, you know, I don't need you to fix it. I don't need you to tell me what to do. All I need you to say is, Oh, I'm so sorry. That's really hard to deal with. I'm here to support you. And you know, I think so much of this is I think diet culture teaches us. As well as other things, but dye culture really teaches us to not be very comfortable with discomfort. Right? If you're feeling uncomfortable about your body, well, then here's the fix and it doesn't allow us any. Any space or any, or any tools to hold space for difficult feelings. And I think for me, a lot of my work is less fixing and more holding space. You know, more holding space for what it, what it means to, to live in a fat phobic world. What does it mean to, to experience weight stigma and to try and not internalize it anymore? How do we make space for grieving the body that we once had or that we held on a pedestal that we know we might never be able to achieve. And, and how do we grieve the harm that we might've done to ourselves through diet culture. And I think if we can partners, especially can be able to hold space for those very powerful feelings. I think that's how we build a deeper connection and knowing that, Oh, I can, I can share this. Right by me sharing and me being comfortable sharing, I am going to feel it's going to help it be a little bit better, right. To navigate this. And I think this is where like Bernay, Brown's work is so useful in many ways, because it's about that vulnerability and leaning into that vulnerability.

Vanessa: 32:09

Yeah, I think that's so important to mention because so many times as humans in general, I think we just want to jump right into problem solving. Like you told me your issue. I'm I need to think of something to solve that right away. And sometimes it's not about that, cause we're not going to have the answers. So it's just, like you said, holding that space and providing support and validation.

Emily: 32:32

So this kind of burning question, one of our last ones, um, so many people all the time say I love my body so much, but I still want to change it. what advice do you have for people who are still not quite ready to give up the pursuit of weight loss, but they want to start a body acceptance journey. And is that even possible?

Aaron: 32:56

it's such a common question. I get it as well.

Emily: 32:59

Uh, huh.

Aaron: 33:10

We value body world healthy body

Emily: 33:40

Yeah. So are you just, you just don't care about yourself, I think is such a narrative. Yeah, totally.

Aaron: 33:50

that, so healthism shows up in this, I think weight, stigma shows up in this. to validate for those folks who are listening and feeling that like, Oh, I guess I want to accept my body. want to change it okay. that way. What was my experience like on a diet? What did it feel like? What were the pros and what were the cons? And, and, and once I park that you didn't. of weight loss so important. of the things that is really, I dunno how I want to say this. Um, idea that have body acceptance for all bodies as we do this. And I think that's why some folks will choose body liberation, liberation, acceptance. is about. in a larger body to as radical as except the body they're in and give up the pursuit of weight, loss engages in that Their their lived experience and how they're going to, a lot of folks are not going to be okay with it, want it to be. why weight loss still holds message has become internalized. say this. that lot of folks in this no end game. means that you're how you're going to navigate it is going to come from a very different paradigm.

Emily: 39:05

And that the external world that has kind of perpetuated the stigma might stay the same. So these triggers are still going to be there. It's just, you know how to manage them a little better. And then lastly, any resources that you'd like to share to folks to get started on the journey of body acceptance. If you're like, I have no idea where to even begin. Yeah.

Aaron: 40:08

Memoir, um, of, uh, of a black man in a larger body. Um, I think there, I think, you know, checking out be nourished and doing their no more waiting course is, is, is a great entry point into this. They run it multiple times throughout the year. I would also say, uh, you know, if, if you are interested in joining my men's group, that's a great, um, that's a great option, uh, for folks. And I think, you know, Um, going down sort of the rabbit hole of, of once you read some of those books to really like say, okay, now what's the next voice that's going to add to this narrative, add to this story for me. Uh, and where does my voice fit in?

Vanessa: 40:54

And can certainly link those books and such in our show notes. If anyone is interested in those and Erin, um, if anyone is interested in your group or finding you on social media, where can they find you?

Aaron: 41:11

you'll find me on Instagram and you'll find me very inactive. Um, but, um, but I'm there. Um, my, my Instagram handle is at Aaron Flores, R D N a and I post. Semi on regularly, whatever that means. But there's some stuff up there. Um,

Vanessa: 41:42

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. And yeah. Check Aaron out. If you haven't already,

Track 1: 41:50

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of wellness myths. Please remember to like review and subscribe. See you next time.