Emily: 0:00

Heinous.

Vanessa: 0:01

Hey

Emily: 0:01

So

Vanessa: 0:04

Guess what everyone I'm Lee and I are sinked up,

Emily: 0:08

Oh yeah, we totally are. We got our periods within two hours of each other.

Vanessa: 0:13

Yeah, probably. And you know what we decided. Well, this was not very smart of us listeners. We were like, Hey, this is period day one. Let's record a podcast.

Emily: 0:26

We both ignored all of the advice that Vanessa gave in our RPMs episode. And we're like, let's do something crazy and dynamic. And that requires a lot of energy from us, but I don't even think it's going to be an issue because I'm really excited about this topic that I think it's going to really like skyrocket my energy enough that you won't even notice.

Vanessa: 0:48

Honestly, I'm looking at Emily right now and her skin is glowing. I think all of this research looking at nuMe has just heated her up to a whole new level. And now she's, uh, now she's just glowing.

Emily: 1:01

I mean, it would, it's very like me to have physical sensations regarding like my emotions. Like many people know I can literally give myself a fever from anxiety. So like I basically also get the same diet culture fever where like, I literally feel heated up from the inside out when I get excited about this stuff. So I can't wait to talk about it.

Vanessa: 1:27

yeah, let's get into it. Welcome to this week's episode of wellness MIS this week, we are talking about nuMe. And if you don't know what nuMe is, it is a diet app, basically. And we're really excited to talk about it. We've talked about doing this episode before, but we didn't know if it would be interesting to people, but you know what, if you listen to podcasts, You've heard of nuMe because basically every other podcast is advertising for them and they might sound great on the outside because especially now they've kind of changed their brand to be, oh, it's just a change in lifestyle. And they're. Kind of trying to hitch their wagon to that movement, but we know the insides of what's going on and that's not what's happening.

Emily: 2:31

no, it's it's that we've talked about it before. It's that really insidious nature of diet culture. That's kind of masquerading itself as part of the body positive movement. And that's just completely untrue. The app is very much centered around weight loss. It's really like, you know, they'll say, yes, it's a lifestyle change, et cetera, but it's still really focused on intentional weight loss.

Vanessa: 2:56

Absolutely. Can you give us a little bit of a background on nuMe and also, can you tell us your personal experience with them?

Emily: 3:06

absolutely. So basically noon. I'll kind of, if you're not familiar with this app, I'll just give you a quick rundown of what it is. So it's basically an yet another iteration of a calorie counting app. It doesn't show you macro nutrients. So you're not really looking at protein or carbs or fat, and instead foods are characterized by yellow or green, yellow, and red foods. And you can only imagine what that means. A green food would be like blueberries, apples, carrots, peppers, spinach, Brussels sprouts, whole grain bread, nonfat, dairy, and egg whites. Those aren't like the only green foods, but, you know, just so you get an idea, yellow foods would be avocado salmon, chicken, Turkey, beans, tofu, whole eggs, Tenpay. And

Vanessa: 3:57

Sorry, interrupt Emily listeners. But I am like losing my mind over here because how is salmon and chicken? A yellow food. I mean, is it just because they're higher calorie?

Emily: 4:14

I think so just because the whole thing is centered around calories, which we already know right away as a total red flag, it's not about the total calories you're eating because you could be eating a quote unquote, normal, or even a weight loss range of calories, and you're not getting any of your nutrients. So it's just kinda silly. And then. So that's the yellow foods. And then the red foods are olive oil, nuts and seeds, nut butters, dried fruit, beef, pork, full fat dairy bacon, French fries, burgers, potato chips, pizza and cake.

Vanessa: 4:47

Holy toast seeds.

Emily: 4:50

yeah. Seeds and who even knows, like right off the bat too, you can tell this is a total myth because all pizza is not created equal. Like all oil's not created equal all French fries, like every single thing can be so different. So right off the bat, you can already tell. It's it's really silly to characterize and categorize foods like this, not to mention the dangers of like, you know, red foods are bad for you. Quote unquote and green foods are good for you, whatever it's to me, it's like, it's really close to WeightWatchers in that way, which I know they've like transitioned more towards these like less, overtly diety language, just like new

Vanessa: 5:29

Yeah, it kind of makes me think of something that always annoys me is I feel like you'll always see people out here talking about how tacos are bad for you. And I'm always sitting there like what, how are tacos bad for you?

Emily: 5:45

Yeah, that's a really confusing. And also you couldn't even say if tacos are good or, I mean, not like any food really is good or bad for you, but you can't even say that because they're so different.

Vanessa: 5:55

right? Like, are you talking about a taco from taco bell or are you talking about a taco that you made at home and like loaded with a bunch of veggies and such.

Emily: 6:05

right. Are you talking about a corn tortilla or a wheat flour tortilla. And what are your nutrition goals? And are you allergic to corn? Maybe you can have that or are you sensitive to gluten? It's just like, it's just such a red flag with this app.

Vanessa: 6:21

Absolutely.

Emily: 6:23

So, and they do even the worst part is they make it a point to say in the app ride doesn't mean bad and green doesn't mean. Good. Okay. But then what else does it mean when you're supposed to have less red foods and more green foods than the other?

Vanessa: 6:37

well, and I think that even deeper down than that, like if we got into psychology, even if you're reading that read isn't bad and green doesn't necessarily mean good, we are programmed. As human beings in our culture to believe that green means good and red means bad. So you're not really going to erase that.

Emily: 7:00

Right for sure. And why are we even setting ourselves up for that potential trigger? Important note too, is this is really not appropriate for people with eating disorders or disordered eating or people who are at risk of eating disorders. And I mean, guess what, you don't really know if you're at risk or not, until you start engaging in this behavior. And then you don't know if you're going to be one of the people who starts to develop this kind of obsession with it. Because it's, it takes a lot of work to track your calories and count all your, the foods and all that.

Vanessa: 7:32

yeah, that that's absolutely insane to me that the just alone, the, you know, red light, green, light, yellow light on foods. It. No matter what foods were in those categories, even though the foods that are in those categories don't even make sense to me. Like you said, it must just be a calorie thing alone, but it's just so bad, so bad.

Emily: 7:59

Yeah. And we know that calorie counting is shown to lead, to disordered eating and not to mention too, that this comes up in so many of my sessions with clients where. Like you don't realize it's, it's not just that you're calorie counting and that's where it stops. Right? It affects your life in so many ways. You might not be able to go out to eat and eat freely with a friend. You might be really irritable because you are not allowed to eat according to your app, but you're really hungry. And you're going to be irritable. And then your partner is going to be like, why are you so irritable? You know, it's like these really sneaky ways that this affects us. That go way beyond just counting calories or not counting calories. There's all these sort of little pieces that we kind of ignore and just say, oh, well I lost weight. So it's cool.

Vanessa: 8:45

Right. It's so funny too. When you look at their marketing compared to. You know, what they're actually doing is I've heard their advertisements on podcasts and it's like, no, we're just a lifestyle change. We're not your average dieting app kind of thing. And that's not what it sounds like to me at all. Um, sounds like they are your ad average dieting app and maybe even more insidious than some others.

Emily: 9:20

yeah, it's like on one hand, I almost wish that these kinds of apps would just say it, what it is like, just, you know, say what you are, which is a diet app. And there's another piece that is kind of. More unique to nuMe when you compare it to like my fitness pal or something like that. And it's the coaching aspect. So at a higher price point, you're offered a coach. So there's a lot of things that I could say about this, right? The fact that it's really, you're only given the context of what nuMe is telling you via a support person, if you have the financial means to do so. So right off the bat, that kind of makes me feel weird. The fact is that the coach that you receive the requirements to be a coach for noon, right. And this person is kind of like more of a motivational. Yeah. A cheerleader for you. It might be somebody that, you know, they can give out like very small bits of information, like nutrition wise. But really the only requirements they're supposed to have is that they must obtain a bachelor's degree in a related field of study. This is like really anything at all that pertains to health or wellness or science. Or you can even just have an associates degree, plus 2000 hours of related wellness experience and personal coaching or. You know, personal training, sports medicine, all of that counts as experience. And at the bottom, it's kind of funny because they really, they less background in psychology or nutrition is plus when, what else are they really there for to just say that? And then the fact is regardless, even if, you know, they're meant to just be this motivator, I can guarantee you, these people are seeking nutrition advice from that.

Vanessa: 10:57

Well, I think the sticky part of that too, is like you said, Even if they're supposed to be just this motivator, they're not necessarily giving specific nutrition tips. They're not saying like supplement this increase your vitamin C, whatever. It might be a more specific, nutrition recommendation. This person's looking for support. And if you're logging foods, for example, and you have red foods, green foods, yellow foods, I mean, I'm assuming that these coaches are responding to that. And how, what is their response is what I'd like to know? You know, what are they saying when someone says, oh my goodness, I have all of these red foods. And I feel really horrible about it. If you don't have proper training in how to respond to something like that, your response could really send someone into a tailspin.

Emily: 11:56

Yeah. And even as dieticians, like we take, you know, very basic psychology and kind of, we learn about coaching and talking to people and everything, but it's a reason why I did my intuitive eating counselor certification because I felt like, you know, that piece was lacking. And since that's where I wanted to specialize in, you know, I felt like I didn't have those skills. So, even as dieticians, we're not receiving this information, just built into our education. You have to kind of seek it afterwards if you're looking to specialize there. And what's really crazy is when I finished my dietetic internship, I was looking for a remote job and I actually applied with noon. And this is like years and years ago. Kind of before I had fully gone down the intuitive eating path, and through health at every size, it was like kind of before my awakening with that. But even that, I didn't really know what they were about. I thought it was just like health coaching. And I had seen a couple other dieticians do this because it was a really easy way to kind of like work part-time and, you know, I teach yoga too. So I was like, oh, maybe this will be the perfect little fit for me. And I remember getting past a couple stages of the interview, like really simple, like it was like video sent in a video and just really straight forward things. And then you had to do a simulated conversation with a client. So like they pretended to be somebody using the app and this person, this like fake person, basically. Was having a crisis. They were like, I'm so fat. I'm so ugly. These are literal things that this like fake interview person said to me. And they're like, you know, all, I don't like salads. All I want to eat are brownies. And my husband thinks I'm fat. Everybody in the office is making fun of me. Like, but there's so many donuts around like how do I stop eating them? And that is just those concerns. And if someone's saying things along those lines, that's, they're needing the anti-diarrhea dietician and. A therapist that is aligned with health at every size. And, you know, as trained in body acceptance and body neutrality, that's not something that is even remotely in the scope of a personal coach that has an associates degree with 2000 hours of hanging out in the gym, you know, bullshitting with personal training clients. That's, that's not somebody who is prepared to handle that.

Vanessa: 14:30

Yeah. And even beyond that, too, I think of, so if that's the, obviously this is a fake person, right? So that. Kind of lens to me that what is new, like this is how they think regular clients are like, if you're overweight, you like can have no control and you hate salads and you only like brownies and donuts. I mean, that's where my brain goes is like, is that how they think of people?

Emily: 15:03

Yeah. So stigmatizing.

Vanessa: 15:05

Yeah. Most people who want to lose weight, eat really healthy diets and they can't lose weight doing that. And that's why they turn to extra support.

Emily: 15:17

right. And most people, you know, that are trying to lose weight, have tried everything right. And it continues to fail. And so it's like, they're just sending them, selling them another bill of goods, like, oh, do this and this and this, we promise this will be the time it works. and, uh, really interesting. Fact. So there, there is no long-term data on nuMe, right? And if you are curious about long-term data of intentional weight loss, go back, listen to our BMI episode, you'll learn everything and be shocked every two minutes. It's groundbreaking information, but nuMe uses this statistic that 78% of new musers sustain their weight loss over nine months among 35,900 participants. Okay. But once again, this is a 2016 study, right? Well, why didn't they continue it onto a year? Why didn't we continue this study into five years? Right? Because six months at six, nine months, it's like, okay, who knows? Some people, you know, sustain it, whatever. But even in that nine month period, which is a very short amount of time, and you look at a whole life span, you know, that over 20% of people had already gained back what they lost. Okay. And you know, this nearly 80% of people that were able to sustain it for nine months. Okay. I'm not that impressed. Talk to me another year from now or five years from now, when the research says that, you know, over 90% of people will gain it all back plus some, and they don't want to lose customers. Right. These apps are built to like where you keep coming back to it, coming back to it. People are on and off WeightWatchers their whole lives. And that's how they're built.

Vanessa: 16:51

right. And honestly, when you take a deeper look into noon, how is it any different than weight Watchers? Really? I mean, weight Watchers is points. This is like a stoplight basically. I mean, it's same thing, different model, I mean, is nuMe just WeightWatchers light,

Emily: 17:10

that weight Watchers with a mascot, weight Watchers with like weight Watchers, with like a wig and a mask. And like some glasses, like.

Vanessa: 17:19

Little bit of lipstick on.

Emily: 17:20

Yeah, my God, this is like that visual is killing me.

Vanessa: 17:25

It's like a sexy weight. WeightWatchers

Emily: 17:28

Yeah, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's like weight Watchers and high heels and they're a millennial.

Vanessa: 17:34

exactly. Yeah. Cause like, and this is something we've talked about before we've discussed doing an episode on WeightWatchers in the past and Emily talked about it and I was like, no, no, no, no. Like WeightWatchers is. For people that aren't necessarily in our podcast demographic. I'm sorry if you're listening. Um, and you're like over, yeah, you're over 60, but most of our demographic is a little bit younger than that. So I guess I think of weight Watchers as like our parent's generation, their weight loss tool. In Newman's like ours actually I've been proved wrong by that recently, I was just telling Emily the other day, I heard like two people of two people in a couple of days that were on weight Watchers that were our age. So I guess weight Watchers is for everyone again, and now they were advertising the kids too. So, I mean, I don't know, maybe they're going to make a comeback.

Emily: 18:29

Yeah, they're going to have like one for a newborn babies. We're going to like, kind of, we'll make sure that you might have to like, measure your breast milk out to make sure that like they're not eating too much. Like that's, that's kind of what I first seen extra weight.

Vanessa: 18:41

Yeah, really though.

Emily: 18:43

so some of that's really interesting and so we know how we feel about this, right? It's like not confusing what our thoughts are about nuMe and what diet apps, you know, the dangers of them and all this stuff. But. I thought it would be kind of interesting before we did this episode, I was just kind of poke you're on their website and you're, you can use their website and kind of fill out this little questionnaire. And so I went through it and I was just curious, like, what would they ask whenever? And so right away they ask what is your goal? And you can either answer, lose weight for good. Which they have no doubt of support for good forever get fit for. Good. What does that mean? Or both so already it's like completely ambiguous, very confusing, whatever you have to put in your height and weight after you answer that question. And then if you put in a weight that is classified as underweight by your BMI, by the BMI scale, they will not allow you to put in that number as a goal weight. So I was like, okay, that's good. I guess that they're, you know, telling people, no, like that's not a body size that is attainable or right for you. But at the same time, they're acting as though this other body size that could be like 200 pounds lighter than you are now is attainable for you, which is also really silly. So it's like, appreciate the, you know, kind of disclaimer with that there. But I mean, that's really just to cover their own ass at the end of the day.

Vanessa: 20:11

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there might be, I mean, you know, you think of your own height and weight and knowing what your build is and someone, you know, a certain way might be completely normal for them. And for you, you might be like completely amazed created at that.

Emily: 20:30

Yeah, exactly. And like we already know BMI is stupid, so like that doesn't even really have any. That doesn't have that much of a value either. So then the next question, after you give them this, like very limited information about yourself is do you have an important event coming up and it's vacation wedding, holiday, summer, a class reunion, or a birthday and. Basically. I was like, why are they asking this question? This is so weird, but basically what you answer. So say you answer, let's do summer. I think it's like maybe the stupidest one. And, um, then we'll say, okay, how many days til summer? And then you say, okay, there's like, you know, 60 days till summer or whatever. And then they'll say, okay, we can help you lose X amount of pounds by this date. So it's like already right off the bat, they're saying you should change your body. If you have a vacation wedding holiday, summer reunion or birthday coming up, that's like what the baseline thing is like, okay, you want to change your body for a specific event. And they're really encouraging that. And I think what that's, they're doing that because it's predatory and it's easy because people do tend to seek out things like new or whatever, because they want to lose weight for a specific event.

Vanessa: 21:53

It's not like I want to lose weight, so I have more energy or I want to lose weight so I can go for a 10 mile run or I can play with my grandchildren or whatever it might be.

Emily: 22:05

right. And once again, like they can still do all those health promoting behaviors that will enable them to do that and might not even lose weight. So it's like, they're just really connecting this. It's just funny. Like it's a lifestyle app, but they're going to put you on a certain diet. That's going to make you lose a certain amount of weight by this one day. Like that doesn't seem like a lifestyle at all to me. Um,

Vanessa: 22:27

I mean,

Emily: 22:27

just another red flag.

Vanessa: 22:29

I just hope that if anyone is listening and has done nuMe, I just really hope that you can unprogrammed yourself from that green, yellow, and red foods, because I just that's so damaging. Even if you're not someone who's prone to an eating disorder, you don't have an eating disorder. I just think that's so psychologically damaging to be thinking of foods in that manner and to be looking at olive oil and you're seeing red that you're associating it with something bad

Emily: 23:07

right. When in reality, maybe you have a health condition where olive oil is like top recommended for you.

Vanessa: 23:12

or olive oil is great. I mean, for everyone, you know,

Emily: 23:16

Yup. Yup. So they're already kind of, you know, starting this whole like weight loss culture thing by a certain date, which once again is even more gaiety and less lifestyley. And then this is just one of like the really like silly questions that they asked. It was as a woman in your twenties, the specific combo of foods you eat can have a huge impact on your ability to burn fat. Which of the following best describes your typical lunch? I tend to eat sandwiches and, or wraps, or I tend to eat soups and salads or other. So already I'm like, what, like, why do people have to eat soup, salad sandwiches or wraps? Like what, like, how bizarre is this? And also like how whitewashed, right? There's like, no kind of like ethnic food available. And that's what a lot of diet culture is. Right. We've like taken and like colonized our culture with eating. Um, that's a whole other conversation, but,

Vanessa: 24:14

Honestly, we, we need to have someone on, um, to talk about that on Instagram, definitely follow the black nutritionist. She talks a ton about decolonizing, your plate and whitewashed foods. I think with her content to a lot of white people get offended, which she's like, I don't care. I'm not saying that your food is bad, but you're saying mine is so.

Emily: 24:44

And they're saying, and you know, like we've kind of vilified certain cultural foods from other nonwhite cultures and that's just like beyond wrong and beyond diet culturey yeah, her Instagram is black dot nutritionist. So definitely go follow her if you want some more info on that.

Vanessa: 25:05

And if you're a white person, you might watch it and feel a little bit uncomfortable, and definitely just get comfortable with being uncomfortable. That's what it's all about.

Emily: 25:16

for sure. Okay. Um, okay. Wait, there's one other thing I wanted to say about you.

Vanessa: 25:22

Yeah, but yeah, that's the thing too. I'm curious, you know, they said they gave the sandwich option and then the stupid salad. And I don't even know how you're differentiating between those. I mean, you could have a very nutritionally, deplete salad and have a sandwich that's just packed with nutrients or the other way around. You know, it's just, it's

Emily: 25:46

it's weird too. That they're like you eat sandwiches and wraps or soups and salads. What if I eat sandwiches and salads? Like how do I it's just so stupid. Yeah.

Vanessa: 25:57

I need something to dip my sandwich in.

Emily: 26:00

Exactly. A grilled cheese situation. Yeah. It's just, it's so confusing because it's just so asinine and so. Unhelpful and so many levels. And I just love that these are like the few questions to ask, and then basically these questionnaires, and by saying, enter your email to see how much weight you can lose by the summer and for good, not researched with new. So it's like, they're automatically like putting this end date on it. Which, I mean, that's more honest with them because by putting this like, oh yeah, you can lose it by the summer. Sure. If they just said that, I'd be like, yeah, maybe, but also. The problem with that is, and then you're going to gain more back. You're going to gain more than what you started with. Not that that's always a problematic thing, but we give it a new set point. We, our basal metabolic rate can be changed by restriction like this. So ultimately it's doing the opposite of what people believe it's doing in the long-term.

Vanessa: 26:55

And then beyond that too, is, you know, they're giving this day, which. I guess if we're thinking of smart goals, you have to be time specific. But I also wonder, like, if you put in, I want to lose 50 pounds in 60 days, are they just going to be like, okay, that's great. Or do they have a cutoff of like that? You can't do that.

Emily: 27:23

they say one to two pounds a week, which is kind of like what we learned in undergrad saying that like, that's like an okay reasonable amount to lose. But I mean, once again, like we know that that just results in weight gain that comes back. So is it really because it still doesn't make sense when you look at the research, you cannot make it make sense. You just can't. So ultimately we always like to kind of leave with those little actionable items or what can you do to kind of like combat nuMe and diet apps in your life. And, you know, the number one tip is to not use them, but you know, if, if you're currently in a dieting app, if you're currently calorie counting or, you know, maybe you're a nuMe customer really thinking about what. You want to do with your health and then working with a professional one-on-one that really gets to know you and knows the whole picture and can provide you with a lot better, more targeted, information for your personal goals would be a lot more helpful.

Vanessa: 28:24

And I think too, it's important to mention that if you are currently doing nuMe or if you've done Newman in the past, we're not here to shame you about it. If you know someone who's doing new, don't shame them about it. We shouldn't, we sometimes get into this place where we get a little Shamie about things. We just want you to know that these companies have great marketing. And so you don't have to feel bad that you fell into that trap because they ha they paid people a lot of money to lure you into that trap.

Emily: 29:00

and it is genuinely built for you to fall right into it.

Vanessa: 29:05

literally, so please do not feel any shame if you currently. Are doing new, have done new. We just want you to know the facts and that we don't want you to waste money on something that isn't going to be good for your health. It might actually end up being really bad for your health. I mean, I have a really hard time, thinking that this doesn't cause more stress. I mean, I don't know.

Emily: 29:35

Another there. And the reason why too, that this kind of got reignited for me is that. I've been seeing their ads constantly on Facebook recently, where they equate food to exercise like, oh two scoops of ice cream is a two mile run or whatever. And that's really, really problematic. And the research really does show that that kind of messaging really messes with people's relationship with food and exercise. And so they're doing that because they know that's what sells that's what gets them customers, but it's really, really not appropriate.

Vanessa: 30:08

no, not at all.

Emily: 30:10

They were fired up about noon. If you have any personal nuMe stories that you want to share with us, please tell us all about them. And if you've done nuMe and you feel as though it really helped you and changed your life for the better, then I kind of want to hear about that too. And I really, I think a lot of the times when people report these positive aspects with diets, I always think, okay, could we have accomplished that in a different way that maybe had a potential for less harm, right. And, and okay. If you lost 30 pounds and that was your goal. Okay. But what else did you gain? You know, this do not have a more complex relationship with food. We experience shame with eating all these different things. Nothing happens in a vacuum. And so I would be curious to kind of dig a little deeper into that.

Vanessa: 30:59

Well, I think that's all we have for you today. We'll see you next Wednesday.