Emily: 0:00

Hey ness. So today we're going to talk about WeightWatchers and I researched it this afternoon, and I feel like ever since then, it's just kind of like in the back of my mind and. I saw a post that Jessica Simpson made today. And I love Jessica Simpson, especially after her most recent book release, book. It's really good.

Vanessa: 0:29

Oh, I didn't, I didn't know. She released a book.

Emily: 0:33

Oh, yeah, it was a while ago. It was like a number one hit really very popular yet great audio book. And she posted a picture of her working out and I was like, okay, interesting. There's always been a lot about Jessica Simpson's health and her weight in the news. In fact, after this, I Googled Jessica Simpson. Cause I was trying to remember the name of her memoir and the first suggested result was weight loss, which is so irritating. Um, yeah, the first thing, well memory when she wore that outfit and people were like, she's fat now. And like, remember that.

Vanessa: 1:02

No. Okay. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Emily. We were talking about this earlier. My memory is horrible. Like for just like events. Emily said she hasn't really noticed it, but I've been noticing a lot lately. like, remember I just like block things out of my memory, especially if they're not like super important. I feel like I just go, like, I don't need that.

Emily: 1:23

That's it. Yeah. Well, that's cause you're thinking of so many other and way more important things. I mean, this was definitely something you should have blocked out.

Vanessa: 1:31

Okay.

Emily: 1:31

she was like on a treadmill in this Instagram post. And she was like, first day back at him already hurting feeling really dramatic while being sore. I've been craving this bread procrastinating, which I thought was really real. Like a lot of people struggle with that. Like they know they want to move their body, but there's all these other things that take priority. So a nice moment of realness from her. And then she was like one workout. I'm determined not to let myself down, although I will be eating a brownie to give myself some points and I was. Points. And then I instantly started like getting suspicious that she was on weight Watchers or something like immediately. I was like the points and

Vanessa: 2:06

Hello?

Emily: 2:06

else really like made that call out in the common. So I don't really think like it's about that. Of course all the comments were like, don't get too skinny or, Ooh, you're so little, all this like kind of really like fat phobic stuff. And it's, I'm just like really concerned that she's on WeightWatchers because she's not like a personal hero of mine after reading the book. So hopefully that's not happening, but I don't understand what she meant by that. Or maybe I'm just like reading into everything because I got so deep on my WeightWatchers research.

Vanessa: 2:35

Yeah, you could be and, you know, weight Watchers, especially if they're after their rebrand, like they're really trying to fit.

Emily: 2:45

They're really trying to be trendy right now. And so I can't wait to tell everybody about this. Like reboot,

Vanessa: 2:51

Okay. Let's get into it. So welcome to wellness Smith today, we're talking about weight Watchers and for those of you that are not familiar with weight Watchers, it's basically just neumes grandmother. I mean,

Emily: 3:13

Ooh, news grandmother. I love that.

Vanessa: 3:16

Yeah. You know what, like new came out and was like, trying to act like they're doing something different and they're not, they're just WeightWatchers and a different point system, basically.

Emily: 3:29

Yeah, totally. And we made that comparison before, but like hearing you make that like maternal comparison really

Vanessa: 3:36

It's true. It's true. So for those of you who aren't familiar with, WeightWatchers basically what it is, is a point system. So you're assigned a certain number of total points for each day and then foods are. S assigned points as well. So now in their rebrand, they've actually made some foods, zero points. So like fruits and veggies and things like that. And then higher calorie foods would be more. Apparently, they have also rebranded that a little bit and the points are not solely based on calories. They're based on saturated fats and other things too. But it is a point system. So a little history on nuMe two. We'll just take it way back. Cause I'm sorry.

Emily: 4:23

say noon? I was like, fuck. like, wow, you're really.

Vanessa: 4:28

So a little history on WeightWatchers too, because it's been around for a really long time. And because of that, Emily has been wanting to do this weight Watchers episode for a really long time. And for the longest time, I was like, Emily, we don't need to do weight Watchers. It's irrelevant. Like that's what people's parents and grandparents are doing.

Emily: 4:49

like, nobody does that. That's not our demographic.

Vanessa: 4:52

but you know what I'm, I'm starting to see WeightWatchers. I mean, they're still out here changing and trying to rebrand, so, they're definitely definitely should still be on our way. So weight Watchers began in 19 in the 1960s. So the founder's name was Jean and Jean was someone who tried everything to lose weight, including diet pills, and hypnosis, and surprisingly enough that did not work.

Emily: 5:21

Wow. No shit, no way.

Vanessa: 5:24

So finally gene entered a 10 week weight loss program that was sponsored by the New York city board of health obesity clinic. And she lost 20 pounds. So Jean was super excited about that, she was dissatisfied with the lack of peer support, peer support she got during the. So she started her own support group at her home. And this ultimately started weight Watchers, which has grown to weight Watchers has 4.6 million members worldwide today.

Emily: 6:00

Wow.

Vanessa: 6:01

Yup.

Emily: 6:01

to me. And can I interject us right here? It's so interesting. Like this. W w the need that she was really fulfilling, it sounds like is the need for a community. And so it's just interesting like that, you

Vanessa: 6:15

You know,

Emily: 6:15

it's almost like we were talking about this a lot in last week's episode about cleanses. Like, could she have possibly found a community in a way that didn't include all of this harmful dieting? You know, it's just, it really gives you kind of pause and it's thought provoking.

Vanessa: 6:29

Well, and Emily, I mean, maybe she could have, but Jean did pretty well. She ended up selling WeightWatchers to Heinz. Yes, the ketchup company Heinz the late 1970s for $71 million.

Emily: 6:48

Oh, wow. So let's say, yeah, she's probably chasing after a little bit more than community.

Vanessa: 6:54

Yeah, soul Jean. She she was looking, she was looking at the piggy bank as well, but you know what good for her $71 million and that was. in the seventies. So, I mean, I mean, that's a ton of money now, but then, then too. So anyway, You know, now weight Watchers is supported by really big celebrities like Oprah, possibly Jessica Simpson. That's still we're still wondering about that. I'm always going to be sleuthing around about that, but most recently, and I actually did 'not know this, but did you know that weight Watchers changed their name?

Emily: 7:34

no.

Vanessa: 7:35

So I know I mentioned, you know, they've done this rebrand where, because at the very beginning, it really was just this point system and weighing yourself and tracking your food and keeping track of points. it's still. That, but they've added other components and there's different tiers of your membership with weight Watchers, but they've partnered with Headspace, the meditation app and Aaptiv, which is a fitness app. So they're trying to be in the mindfulness game and they actually started some stuff in 2004 to be. More mind, body connection, which is actually super ironic for like the whole premise of what they do. But they changed their name in 2018. So if you ever see WW most people think WeightWatchers, but their new name is wellness. That works.

Emily: 8:29

Hmm. Okay. Good to know. I mean, that's, that's a good tip if you're like out in the wild and you see that, just know it's really just WeightWatchers.

Vanessa: 8:38

Yes, it is really just WeightWatchers. in disguise. I, I think, you know, they're doing a billion effort of trying to change that name. But I don't think weight Watchers is ever going to go away. It's been it's been around too long.

Emily: 8:55

Totally.

Vanessa: 8:55

yeah, so they're really like trying to be these healthy lifestyle promoter and get into more of the trendy areas like mindfulness. Not that mindfulness is a trendy thing really, but it's become trendy recently. But it it's just so interesting that they are doing that. Just because their whole premise is counting points. So another interesting thing that they introduced with their big rebrand in 2018 were rebound points. They are points that if you don't use during the day you can use some, a different guy. So let's say you have, the way they market it is, let's say you have a family, barbecue, or a holiday or a birthday party. You can use less points one day and move those points to let's say Saturday when you're going to the birthday party. So you can have some cake.

Emily: 9:52

Oh, wow. So they just roll over.

Vanessa: 9:54

Exactly. But they call them re rebound a rebound points.

Emily: 10:01

Wow. I wonder what the explanation is for that name even.

Vanessa: 10:05

I don't know. It's very interesting. Oh no, maybe it is rollover points. You know what? I think I messed That up. You guys, I, think it is rollover point. Interesting.

Emily: 10:16

sense. That makes more.

Vanessa: 10:18

to read my notes a little bit better as I'm talking. I'm so sorry. To our audience. It's actually rollover points, but if you ask me, I'm probably going to say rebound points. Cause I've said that so many times at this point, it's like stuck in my head.

Emily: 10:33

I think that's

Vanessa: 10:34

okay.

Emily: 10:34

Okay, interesting. So it's almost like,

Vanessa: 10:36

like, you know,

Emily: 10:38

it just reminds me of

Vanessa: 10:39

good.

Emily: 10:39

much. WeightWatchers really wants you to be out of your body and out of how your body's feeling

Vanessa: 10:45

Yeah.

Emily: 10:45

get right into that

Vanessa: 10:47

Yeah.

Emily: 10:47

like, critical space of, okay, I'm going to eat this much food this day. And on the next day I will, you know, counteract it by eating more or less or something like that.

Vanessa: 10:57

Yeah,

Emily: 10:58

you know, The point of like,

Vanessa: 11:01

yeah,

Emily: 11:01

with this diet, you're trying to restrict as much as you can within the parameters that they're giving you. But it really leads me to also think that it could bleed into overeating as well. Like if you're at the end of your week and you have so many rebound points left and you're like, well, shit, like I should probably take these last points and spend them on, you know, whatever I want. And I feel like that's just really supportive of Benji.

Vanessa: 11:27

for sure. And I think that all in all the point system is really reductive. And like you said, easily, just the point system alone, not even these rollover points could lead to. Over-consumption there's so there's 200 foods that are zero points. So like I said, let's like fresh fruits and veggies and like lean meats. And there's a couple other things in that category. So the zero point foods, I feel like even though they might be, you know, generally considered healthy foods, it could lead to overeating those foods. And then under eating foods that provide really good nutrients, but might also have some points like nuts, for example.

Emily: 12:08

Yeah, totally. That was my first thought as well. Like you're, you're really. I know they say, they're not doing this, but you are kind of holding one food group higher than the other. If you're allowing yourself an unlimited amount of this, and then you've gotta be super careful when it comes to like olive oil or walnuts or something like that, that tends to be super calorie dense.

Vanessa: 12:29

But also very nutrient dense.

Emily: 12:32

Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like, you know, you're, you're, it's really just this constant ass that you come out of your body and let this app decide for you what you should be eating, which is not nutrition education at all. It's really just restriction.

Vanessa: 12:48

Well, and that's kind of the whole thing too, is their whole tagline has always been, you can eat whatever you want and still lose weight. Like you don't have to give up the foods you love. And so basically. You're not learning anything about, okay, what are these foods that are good and that are nourishing me. You're basically just learning what you need to eat less of.

Emily: 13:13

So if someone is doing WeightWatchers or wellness, that works, whatever new name they're trying to call

Vanessa: 13:20

I can't believe you remembered that.

Emily: 13:23

I know

Vanessa: 13:24

Like, I, I, I guess it is. Yeah. Cause I, I keep having to look at it on my screen.

Emily: 13:31

Yeah, it really, it really upsets me that name. So I think that's why it like stuck in. So if you're engaging with this diet platform, what

Vanessa: 13:39

huh.

Emily: 13:40

a typical day look like for you when you interact with this app?

Vanessa: 13:44

Yeah. So, you know, with their rebrand And things, they've added a lot of different things, but kind of the simplest version of it is you are assigned a total number of points for each day. And then basically all day, you just have to track your points, which is your food in total, your points for the day, make sure that you're not going over the amount of points that you're assessing.

Emily: 14:08

And think about how much effort that really takes, like the way thing, the tracking, anything that isn't a zero point food.

Vanessa: 14:16

Yeah, I know and also I want to, I want to bring this up really quick too. And this kind of was a big deal a couple of years ago, but I feel like no, one's talked about it in a while. So weight Watchers also developed a weight watcher. Or wellness that works for kids and it's called Kurbo. And I mean, watch out nuMe because they actually use the same system as a nuMe. Does that green, yellow, and red light foods. So I don't know if you listen to our new episode, we talk about how new keeps track of foods and they use this red light green light yellow light system, which is the same. Things that Kurbo is using. And I find to be pretty insidious, especially I'm using that with kids.

Emily: 15:07

Wow. Yeah. I mean, talk about a fast track to an eating disorder, labeling foods in that hierarchal way.

Vanessa: 15:14

Yeah, And it's really interesting too, because I was searching around on the Wellness that works WeightWatchers website and they have this article on here and it's how to teach kids to make good food choices. And it's like, it has all these notes, like investigate and discuss, keep morals off the table, snack at home. Give Kurbo a try. And when I go in and like read what's under those subtitles basically. for example, like morals off the table. It's talking, you know, about, you know, we don't want to attach guilt or shame to any foods, but at the same time they're their program. That's called Kurbo. That is giving foods green. Yellow and red lights. So I don't really know how that that doesn't compute for me.

Emily: 16:15

Yeah, it makes absolutely zero sense. And I think that's why, like a lot of people are really easy prey for this stuff because people are starting to understand that diets don't work. And so these things are just really disguising themselves even like at a level with children. Now, apparently and not only is that really harmful for kids to be. Labeling foods in that way, it can be really harmful for adults too. And I saw a lot of that contradictory information on their main website as well, talking about, you know, we're not saying any foods are bad, that would be wrong, but they're telling you that you must limit them in some way. And it must fall within their parameters of what they deemed to be an okay amount to eat. One line. In the zero point PSAs system section was like, now's not the time to start eating four bananas just because there's zero points. And I just thought that was so interesting, especially with bananas, like, okay. I was laughing because

Vanessa: 17:13

Yeah.

Emily: 17:13

a smoothie that was like only banana as the fruit today. And I probably had like three bananas in it. And like, you know, how often do I do that? I don't know, once a month. Not a big deal. I don't think about like over-consuming bananas like that because I just have like more shit to think about every day. But you know, it's like, just points to how. Neurotic, you can really become like, okay, now's not the time to start eating four bananas just because there's zero, but you still definitely want to be eating some bananas, but not too much, even though these points don't really count towards your end game. So if you did eat four bananas, it wouldn't really change it, but like it's, so it doesn't even make any sense. They're trying to be like more lax about everything, but they're just contradicting themselves. Ultimately and there's a lot of. Once again, it goes back to what we were talking about last week about cleansing. It's like a lot of their website is encouraging people to eat fruits and vegetables, but it's still like really packaged deeply in fatphobia. And could you learn all this information in a few sessions with a dietician with zero side of fat shaming and weight focus? Like what if you changed all of these habits and you didn't see weight loss, but you felt improvement. Weight Watchers would be like. And there's no, there's no room to like, be feeling those other things, because even if they're saying, oh, we'll support you through that. Okay. But that the data that you collect and the information that you give out and what you really support people in is intentional weight loss. And so, you know, it leaves people feeling like they weren't able to do it, or it's on them. If they denied the losing weight, even if they might feel better eating more fruits and vegetables on this app, whatever.

Vanessa: 18:47

Problem arises too, and that you know, people have to keep coming back to this program because it's not actually teaching them anything. maybe achieving weight loss. And then they go back to eating how they were eating before, because who wants to keep track of points their whole life. And then they gain that weight right back. So they're not actually. You know, they're not doing anything great for their body, really.

Emily: 19:15

No except weight cycling.

Vanessa: 19:17

and losing way. Yeah.

Emily: 19:19

Right. And in fact, it's actually a negative health indicator that has a lot more of a clear relationship than people being supposedly overweight. So there's been definitely quite a few studies done because as you can guess, weight Watchers has a lot of cash. And they're able to use that to fund studies. And this is pretty normal, like. You know, people fund studies that have to do with like their own wellness program or whatever. It feels really like, I don't know. It gets you to think about it. It's kind of like, like being in, I like, oh, the beef people like fund these studies, like that are obviously pro beef. You know, they're just paying people to kind of like affirm their bias, but even with weight Watchers. So they did a study with the NHS in the UK and this study concluded that third of all, patients who were referred to weight Watchers through apparently the NHS has a weight Watchers referral system. And so a third of those people achieved greater than, or equal to 5% weight loss. Okay. And basically So weight Watchers paid for this study and they were like, You know, 33% of people it worked for. Okay. But once again, this is really just beyond a 12 week period. Okay. This is not like, oh, what happened later down the line, which is really what we want to see. We want to see years later. And so of course there may be certain people that are able to keep the weight off as they say, years later. And weight Watchers is like, oh, we've got to study. And Vanessa, how many people did you say do weight Watchers again? Right.

Vanessa: 20:54

4.6 million members worldwide.

Emily: 20:58

Ah, okay. So 4.6 million members, and this is the size from 2016. So like even say they have like, you know, 3 million back then or something, right? So Weightwatcher's funded another study that is basically like what they can rest their morals on saying that they have long-term results. And they were, they took former WeightWatchers people who had maintained a weight loss that was above nine kilograms. So like 20 ish pounds. And The amount of participants in the study was 4,786 out of millions of people. Okay. And if we watch as could have found a larger sample size, I really think they probably would have, right. Because it makes them look better to have more and more people that have kept the weight off. You know, even the study itself is acknowledging that few people are successful in long-term. Weight loss maintenance. And before this study in WeightWatchers long-term successful weight loss had not really been studied or proven. And they're saying like, this study definitely proves it. They're saying, look, these 4,000 people, 4,786 people have. They consume lower calorie diets. They engage in more activity. There's frequent, self-monitoring all of this kind of stuff that they're saying like, yeah, this is what like, makes it happen for them. You know, if something is 95% likely that you won't lose and keep the weight on there is going to be that 5% that might have better luck with it for whatever reason. Everyone's body is really different. So there's no way to say, but it's just so funny that this is like this big success story when they have millions of app users, but yet the sample size is in the single thousands. So I thought that was really interesting that this was like some supposed to be some sort of great big success.

Vanessa: 22:55

Super interesting.

Emily: 22:57

And the final study that I wanted to bring up is. A study that was done in the efficacy of commercial weight loss programs. And this is a systematic review. So there was a lot of data in here and a lot of different weight loss programs. They did weight Watchers. It had Jenny Craig Nutrisystem. I feel like that was like a really popular TV ad for some reason. Like there's like some song that's

Vanessa: 23:20

Yes. I remember that. And just like He's dancing around with like plain half sleeve shirts on like having the time of their lives.

Emily: 23:31

what was that song? That's like it's

Vanessa: 23:35

it's like very upbeat. I can hear it, but I, I'm not gonna, I don't want to do it,

Emily: 23:40

so I just found this study really interesting. Cause we watch her is also kind of refers to this and is like, see it works. But again, all of these trials have a short duration of less than 12 months which is not long-term when we're looking at weight loss, we want to see like five years. So to me, it's like, we can't really trust anything in this study because it was so short-lived. But what I found super interesting was they kept saying, we found limited evidence to evaluate adherence or harms for all programs. And so basically. I thought, okay. They never really measure for harm and weight loss studies. You know, like who developed an eating disorder or who has a negative relationship with food or exercise now? And so basically like how they measured for is they just ask the people like, so do you feel like this had any negative impact or harm or anything like that? And they were like, no, because I don't really think that like, people feel super open talking about these deep body insecurities or insecurities that you might have with food. It's just not normal. Part of the conversation. And so I just found it really interesting to like, after every section, they were like, oh, no harm was reported. No harm was reported as if like we can all just go on these really restrictive diets. And also too, that we're even aware of the harms that it might cause. And that it would be immediate. Right. It might be a way far away. I cannot tell you how many clients I have that say, oh, I had this diet, you know, when I was like a 10 year old kid and it was sugar-free and now I still have problems around sugar. You know, it took them like 20 years. Come full circle and realize that. So I just thought it was really interesting that they continued to actually mention that this can be harmful, but also that nobody reported it at the same time. And that we took that as like, okay. Yeah. That's science.

Vanessa: 25:20

Well, and I think especially. Participants in the studies, you know, if they had success with WeightWatchers and their success was losing weight, and that's what they set out to do. They're probably a little high on that at the moment. So, I mean, if you set a goal and you achieve it, you're kind of just eyes on the prize at that point and happy with that. With reaching that goal, you're not really thinking much beyond that. Like you said, I mean, it's kinda hard to see at the moment. I think a lot of people, if they're having, you know, some issues with foods or exercise they don't notice till they get like a better look of a far away look at what they're doing. It's usually not immediate. You just feel like, oh, I'm doing these great health promoting activities.

Emily: 26:07

Yeah, totally. And if it's really normalized among the people that you hang out with and in your circle, then you might not even realize, oh, there actually could be another way that doesn't involve, you know, all of this shame or restriction. So my last point here is there was like a little assessment on there that they ask you to do really similar to neumes where they ask kind of like some basic questions about you to help you understand or help them understand how to gear the app. So they ask a lot of questions about wellness in general, which makes sense of their new name. They asked about sleep. They asked about preparedness stress levels. And while that seems like, oh, that's good. It's like, well, it worries me because it just makes it that much more insidious and that much harder for people to like, See through everything and be like, oh, this is a five minute. Meditation is not a substitute for like a therapist, right? Like if you're having stress issues, you have anxiety, depression. It's not a substitute for your psychiatrist. Right. Losing weight is not going to solve all of these things. But all weight Watchers helps you with is losing. So they're basically misrepresenting to me at that point. They're really misrepresenting like, oh, we're a weight loss app, but you know, we'll throw on this five minute meditation here and, oh, here's a workout class. Well, that's not going to do anything to heal your relationship with food or relationship with yourself. And the first question, there's two questions that really stood out. And the first one is why do you want to lose weight and the options where you could like check any of these have more energy, to feel good in my body, to be able to physically do more, fewer medications, to have more confidence, to live longer and to be healthy. And all of those things can be accomplished without losing weight or even just without a focus on weight and restriction in particular. I get why they want to make that correlation because that's how they make money and they clearly make a lot. But it made me upset to read that because I was thinking like, okay, you know, all of these things can be accomplished through health promoting behaviors that have nothing to do with this. that made me sad for sure.

Vanessa: 28:14

Well, and I think it's really interesting too, because weight Watchers the whole the way things are set up is not actually, yes, they may be very successful and helping you lose weight because they're restricting your calories, but they're not actually helping you learn. Eat foods that are good for you and that are nourishing for your body. it's kind of funny that they even include live longer, be healthier because that's not they're after.

Emily: 28:49

Yeah, totally. And I mean, there's a lot of studies that show that people at higher BMI's, even though. BMI is bullshit, but still they show that people at higher BMI's do tend to have more longevity than people at lower. So it's sort of like this doesn't even really make sense because losing weight, isn't not only necessary, but it's sometimes can even be a negative to achieving these certain things. And also for reference, I put in that I was five, three and 115 pounds. I was just curious, like, if it would kind of flag that or be like, oh, you know, Quote-unquote normal BMI and it, it didn't it

Vanessa: 29:24

No.

Emily: 29:25

let's, let's lose it, girl. Yeah, that really bothered me. And then of course there was questions, you know, like, oh, what do you struggle with between meals snacking late night snacking, which, okay, now we're going to pathologize snacking. But you know, boredom, eating, stress, eating this kind of stuff that really takes troubleshooting with your own anti diet, nutrition, professional. This kind of stuff can take months, years to really uncover the root of. And so I felt like how you mentioned earlier, it was just really reductive and you know, their advice is going to stem from restriction rather than like, oh, maybe you are bored. Okay. Let's explore that. What can you do instead? All those different things that we do in a session with an anti-diarrhea nutrition professional is like not what you're getting from the weight Watchers app. So I found it once again, you're responsible that they would misrepresent.

Vanessa: 30:12

Yeah. So let's, leave everybody with, I mean, I feel like we had quite a few cons to weight Watchers or wellness at works, but w let's sum it up with kind of our pros and cons of WeightWatchers. Obviously we think that it's a little bit insidious. We're obviously not going to recommend it to anybody. But if weight loss is the only thing you're looking for And you are not actually interested in getting healthier or nourishing your body, weight Watchers is not a bad option for you. you will probably.

Emily: 30:53

only want it to work also, if you only want it to work for like 12 months or less,

Vanessa: 30:58

Yes.

Emily: 30:58

just like Slingshot right back to where you were. This, this is the app for you.

Vanessa: 31:05

So if you're looking to lose weight and that's it, it could probably, it might work in the short term. But I will say the good thing about weight Watchers. You know, when looking at them versus some other diets or dieting plans is they don't restrict any major food groups in. There are no off limit foods, which is good. And we don't see that a whole lot. Most diets are restricting, you know, sometimes a whole macronutrient, so they are at least not doing that.

Emily: 31:40

Yeah, that definitely stuck out to me too, as a positive But it kind of reminds me like when we were at the peak pandemic, Trump was president and

Vanessa: 31:51

Uh,

Emily: 31:51

book about North Korea

Vanessa: 31:53

and it

Emily: 31:54

making me feel really grateful that like we had what we had. I was like, oh, okay. We don't have to like, you know, eat our own feces to like gain back like nutrients. And then I was like, this is the. Bar like this is the bar. Like I'm going to like, have to use North Korea to like, feel better about America. Like, is this really the comparison I want to draw? So it's like almost as though weight Watchers is like, not the absolute worse, but the bar is set really low for all of these apps. So it's like, makes me feel like, you know, it's, it's not the worst, but

Vanessa: 32:31

Emily. We're

Emily: 32:31

still bad.

Vanessa: 32:31

be in the pros section. We

Emily: 32:34

Oh, yeah.

Vanessa: 32:35

yet.

Emily: 32:36

I, I, I have, I have no pros. You're you're right. You're right. I do like that. It doesn't restrict so heavily. And I do like that. Hmm. No, I don't like that.

Vanessa: 32:46

I okay. The other thing I, the other thing I will say, that's good. Although it's a bit insidious because they're trying to promote. Promote mindfulness while also undermining it. I'm glad they've you know, partnered with Headspace. So people can be a little bit more exposed to meditation the fitness app. So they're incorporating more things than just food, which is

Emily: 33:10

Yeah, that's so funny. That was literally what I was going to say that I liked so that I was like, but there's, that's how I was like, I think that can just like be put in the cons

Vanessa: 33:17

We'll put it in like the in-between.

Emily: 33:21

Okay, that sounds good.

Vanessa: 33:22

Okay, so cons I mean, I don't even know if we need to really go over this because I think we've kind of covered it. Just a lot of insidious things. I mean, at the end of the day, you have to remember you guys that this is a big business. I mean, it sold for. 71 million in the 1970s. So cannot even imagine what it is worth today. And at the end of the day, I mean, just looking to make more money which is we live in a capitalist society. So, I mean, that's kind of what everyone is after, but just keep that in mind with these really big companies. I'm not sure if they actually have your best interest in mind.

Emily: 34:02

Right. And, and that's partially why, you know, they're okay with you regaining the weight back that they help you lose, because that just means you're gonna come back and you're going to be a repeat customer,

Vanessa: 34:12

Yeah. and

Emily: 34:13

many people.

Vanessa: 34:14

I would love to see the statistics on their repeat customers. I think it's pretty high. And. It's just, it's not worth it doing that kind of yo-yo dieting. It's not worth it for your health and it's not worth it for just like the psychological stress of that. So let's, let's not do it.

Emily: 34:33

You have just like way more important things to be thinking about and considering in your daily life, then how much the granola you ate in the morning.